Posted on 03/02/2009 9:21:44 AM PST by Pyro7480
His Eminence Roger Card. Mahony of Los Angeles shares his view of the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite and, consequently, of the decision two Popes made to emancipate the older, pre-Conciliar form of Holy Mass.
The setting: On Friday, February 27, 2009, at 11:15 a.m. PST, ChurchWerks.com hosted an online chat session with Cardinal Mahony, live from the main Exhibit Hall at the Religious Education Congress in Anaheim, Calif.
Ann Scolari: What are your thoughts on the Trindentine mass?Could not make the transition? What are they, stupid? Have they been lied to?
CardinalMahony: Ann: The Tridentine Mass was meant for those who could not make the transition from Latin to English [or other languages] after the Council. But there is no participation by the people, and I don’t believe that instills the spirit of Christ among us.
No participation by the people? What are they doing there?
Doesn’t instill the spirit of Christ? What is going on there, Your Eminence?
Are Eastern Catholics stupid or not participating or not instilling the Spirit of Christ if they attend the Divine Liturgy in their sacral liturgical language and their mode of participation, shut out by a screen and forced to listen?
WDTPRSers, I put it you now:
Imagine that a bishop, any bishop, might say things about a highly charged topic during a media interview.
Imagine that during Q&A he grossly mischaracterizes something dear and sacred to a group of people, something that touches on their very identity.
Imagine that this imaginary bishop states, in the media, things which are clearly false, even contrary to the teachings of the Church in the Vatican Council and subsequent legislation of Popes.
This imaginary bishop really believes his position to be true, but his statements – however sincerely believed – are deeply offensive to a interested group who have in the past been marginalized and mistreated.
Even people who do not prefer to attend Holy Mass in the older form should be offended by what Card. Mahony said to the world in this online chat.
He slapped our ancestors, Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI, and everyone who loves our Church’s Holy Mass and Divine Liturgy in all its beautiful, meaningful, sacred and legitimate forms.
“Forgive me Father for I have sinned. Last week I went to mass because I could not make the transition from Latin to English, did not participate in the mass, and did not have the spirit of Christ instilled in me.”
It's particularly amusing to me because I used to be an Episcopalian, and they never did sign on to all this ad lib nonsense. Their theology may be severely defective, but they know bad taste when they see it.
Which nicely illustrates the extremely tenuous connection between faithful Christianity and good taste.
For almost 1,700 years, the Church’s ceremonies and sense of protocol were so much the standard of good taste that they were imitated by every royal house of Europe.
Which further illustrates the extremely tenuous connection between faithful Christianity and good taste. Great examples of the Faith, all those royals.
Please don’t be obtuse. We’re not discussing private behavior, of royals or anyone else. We’re discussing ceremony and the visible Church’s historical sense of propriety in how things ought to be done.
The Holy Field Goal! LOLOLOL
Oh, man, am I glad we have the TLM in our parish.
Regards,
Fr. Z misses an even worse implication. Mahony is saying that the “spirit” of Christ is only present when the laity are participating. If I understand correctly, this is the Lutheran belief of consubstantiation.
Mother Angelica was right. Once again, Mahony has de facto denied the actual, physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
Read further in the chat. Mahony also says “Mass is boring.”
I was discussing the relationship between good taste and Christian holiness. I apologize if you thought we were having a different conversation.
I believe Card. Mahony is being honest, and, after a fashion, correct, in his assessment of the Second Vatican Council.
The key to understanding the Council is that it replaced Scholasticism with Phenomenology as the thought of the Church -- or rather, with a Phenomenological reworking of Thomism (a la Congar and Rahner).
According to this new thought of the Church, the Traditional Mass does not, strictly speaking, "instill the spirit of Christ in us."
A phenomenological understaning of that "spirit of Christ" is a spirit that works toward world peace through nuclear disarmament, social justice through redistribution of wealth, and a transformation of human nature so that we all sing "Kumbaya" together in a journey of collective salvation.
And it is quite true that the Traditional Mass does not foster any of these goals of the Council.
Fr. Z is quite correct that neither does the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.
It's [big, dramatic toss of the locks] so old-fashioned.
What you do affects how you pray. Reverent, somewhat formal behavior helps put you into the proper frame of mind to appear before Christ Himself. The more of a difference we draw between our everyday actions and our conduct in worship, the more we remind ourselves that we are in a special and holy place that demands more of us.
On the other hand, jumping around high-fiving each other at the Peace, waving our hands in the air, holding hands and hoisting them high for all to see, and generally behaving as if we are at a party or a rock concert changes the focus from what's happening on the altar to what WE and OUR BUDDIES are doing.
The English have always done ceremonial better than anyone else, and they have an instinctive understanding of what "works" on formal occasions. The apex of that was Queen Elizabeth's coronation, but you can see it even in the House of Commons (as rowdy as that joint gets from time to time) or just an ordinary service even according to the New Prayer Book.
In the case of many (not all) Episcopalians, it's become as a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal . . . because they no longer believe. But at least their conduct in church isn't detracting from worship.
Of course the silliest Catholic service (as long as the Mass is valid) is superior to the non-worship of the loony Episcopalian contingent. But how much better to have BOTH a valid Mass AND a reverent congregation focussed on Christ instead of their silly selves.
Good post AM. If folks are generally un-edjumcated as regards the Faith, forms of the litugy should be used that teach. I still think it looks like MAHONY the LIVING PLANET attacking Earth and a buncha Marvel super heroes are defending it...
Freegards
That's certainly true. However, as you observed above, a fine liturgy does not, in the Episcopal church, directly correlate with a believing Christian congregation. And the Roman Catholic generation that grew up with your Sister Mary Attila and her fine rules of deportment abandoned their faith at the first whiff of a birth control pill. So what's up with that?
The answer to that question is easy, because it's happening again with Obama. When radicals gain control, they don't waste time with the "oh we mustn't upset people, we must respect their feelings" maunderings that well brought up people suppose that they should. They just jump in and CHANGE everything, all at once.
The generation of Sister Mary Attila came to Mass one Sunday and found the altar in the middle of the floor, the saints' statues gone, the confessionals gone, and Father seemingly having taken leave of his senses. They were told everything they had been taught was WRONG and STUPID and that the "new Church" was where it was at.
They felt abandoned and confused, and they left. The people who took VCII and used it as a cloak for their radicalization of the Church will have much to answer for at their particular judgment -- especially for the scandal to the faithful and a cause of their abandonment of their faith.
I guess I just don’t understand abandoning the truth because of feelings or taste. Maybe I would, if I’d been there.
It was because they were told by the Church (through her visible and ordained priest) that everything they had believed was WRONG.
And they weren't told gradually, encouraged and given options, as BXVI has most graciously done in trying to undo the damage. It all happened overnight, without any warning, without any choice, without any refuge.
They were shaken to their core, and they figured if everything they had been taught was wrong, why stay?
It sounds very distressing. I’m glad I wasn’t born then.
It all had an effect even on us kids, I think. Many of my Catholic friends stopped going to Mass, and I think that was only partly because of the usual teenage rebellion stuff.
What a difference a generation makes ...
The fact that Mahony is a crackpot is not in dispute. However, the equation of a “traditionalist” view of liturgy with Christian faith still seems to me to be stretched past its limits, given (for example) that 40% of “traditionalist” Catholics voted for Obama, according to an article in the most recent “First Things.”
But neither is that here nor there, since, when the persecution comes, it will sort out everyone who has the appearance of religion without the reality, whether his “appearance” is enthusiastic or rigorously formal.
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