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To: Dutchboy88
I would never say God tempted a man. Here is temptation... God doesn’t know how a man will respond
God thinks, “Well now, I’ll bet if I did X, he would fall for it and sin.”
God tries something.
It works. That is tempting and He never does this.
 
So your basic argument here is that you believe the verse is stating that God doesn't mess around with "trying" to do anything. He just does it.
 
And you would say the verse in James is not about the source of "temptation"---  it's basically telling us that God doesn't attempt to "lure" us into sin. If He wants us to sin, He just predestines it and [***bingo!***] we sin.
 
If that is the case then you have just provided me with an excellent example of Calvinism's need to radically twist and reinterpret the Scriptures in order to smash it into a theological framework. You have taken the passage and reduced to a nonsensical and meaningless statement - one that is entirely out of step with the plain and simple meaning of the verses.
 
Really, you would be better off just cutting James out of the canon (as Luther wanted to) then trying to pass that exegeses off as believable. Take off your theological spectacles and LOOK at the passage!

"Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."
 
 
The passage is describing the process of desire >>> turning into temptation >>> turning into sin >>> turning into death.
 
This is the formula for how sin and death occur.
 
And there is a comparison, just to make the point more clear. God cannot be tempted to do moral evil and LIKEWISE He doesn't tempt anyone else to do it either. "for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one".
 
How should James have written the passage (if he were a good Calvinist)? Perhaps something like:
 
"Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. No, he just flat out causes them to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."
That's patently ridiculous!
 
No, the passage is clearly telling believers that God is not behind your temptation to sin, ('Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God,"'). He is not the source of moral evil and sin. "(Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers") but He is the source of goodness and light, ("Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father").
 
This passage breaks Calvinism. And its just one of many.

101 posted on 03/17/2009 3:25:55 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

I re read this response of yours, puzzled over your blindness to the internal contradictions. Yet, I am reminded that it is God who opens eyes...or not.

If you hold that passage in its simplest sense means that God cannot be tempted, then you must hold that Jesus was not God, for He was tempted by the devil. The kind of proof-texting you use is nonsense. The matters I brought up reach across the entire Scriptures and are explained in hundreds of settings.

If God has foreknowledge, it must mean something. If it does not mean foreknowledge, then in Catholicism perhaps it means apple pie. But, in the real world, this means God foreknows exactly what is going to happen every moment of every day He creates. All events by extension are thus fixed by His mind as they unfold. That is why His predicting the future is so obviously correct.

Just as He said the death of His Son at that precise day, in that precise location, by those particular people unfolded by the “...foreknowledge and predetermined plan.” Yes, PeteMax, He planned for these guys to sin. Is He guilty? No. Go accuse Him and see where you get. But, did He unfold this like a play on a stage? What does the text say?

I am not partial to Calvin. He did some very bad things, probably less so than the Popes in the Pornocracy Period, but bad nevertheless. He is not a hero for believers. Honestly, we have no heros, since every one is really so broken. We would never elevate a man nor give the near-worship that you ascribe to Mary. She was a broken sinner like us that God gave a great gift to. But, she said, “My savior.” You may despise Calvin and Calvinism (whatever that is), which is no big deal. But if what you really hate is the idea you are not in control of your destiny or that true righteousness does not come from you, my ambition all along was to disabuse you, or any reader, of that misunderstanding.

I’ll have to leave now and let you ruminate on these terrible truths, but truths they are.


106 posted on 03/18/2009 7:29:59 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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