Posted on 03/18/2009 10:27:27 PM PDT by Star Traveler
RE Y2K...
My husband worked on some pretty nasty conversions,
just barely getting computers “fixed” before
1/1/2000. Chuck Misler was VERY effective in
getting software engineers on the ball.
You could say the same about Bush because there
weren’t any terrorist attacks on our soil after
911.
Prevention IS the better part of valor.
Please tie it into the Rapture, if it has some relation to it. I looked and I don’t see any reference to the Rapture. Perhaps you can explain, as this is a Rapture Caucus. Thanks...
Always related to a release of the faithful.
It refers to the discussion of events occurring on YHvH's Feast days
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
Blessing of the Sun and it's third time in history on Passover.
Could April 8 2009 be Gog/Magog instead of the Rapture?
Okay, I did address that issue up above. Briefly, it comes down to two things..., one seemingly violating the doctrine of immenence, and then secondly, this is talking about a Spring Festival, when proponents of this say that those are fulfilled and only the Fall Festivals are left to fulfill. I haven’t ever seen anyone propose that these can be done, either out of order or repeated (as in the Passover).
[can’t type a lot now, doing it from a phone...]
It is also my understanding that the Roman church this is talking about a Spring Festival, when proponents of this say that those are fulfilled and only the Fall Festivals are left to fulfill. I once subscribed to that theory, Passover as the rapture will surprise many "christians"
My understanding that is a Roman church doctrine.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
does not believe in the Rapture.
however it seems to be addressed to Israel only.
as they do not celebrate Passover as Yah'shua commanded
it to be celebrated. NAsbU Luke 22:19 And when He had taken some bread
and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying,
"This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
I have some thoughts, however I do not want to violate ST's caucus.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
I still get Chuck Missler's news letter. I'm just not going to let him off the hook on that one, because I read it back then too. He was an alarmist, and dead wrong. My best to you.
How does a link to this oddity fit with the rapture caucus designation?
You said — “My understanding that is a Roman church doctrine.”
Well, I can’t tell you exactly what the Roman Catholic church is teaching in this regard, but I can assure you that the teaching from the Evangelical Prophecy teachers/preachers/pastors and supporters for the Rapture always refer to the “imminent return” of Christ (i.e., naming the Doctrine of Imminence).
Well, perhaps I spelled it wrong, all the prophecy teachers that I’ve heard or read have *always* referred to it, and point out that the Bible does not give any signs that can lead one to know when the Rapture. It’s referred to as the Doctrine of Imminence, or the imminent return of Christ, or sometimes you’ll hear that “there are no signs that will precede the Rapture...
Here are some examples. Every single teacher or preacher or pastor that I’ve ever heard even mention the Rapture, *always* mentions, right along with it, the Doctrine of Imminence...
Dr. David Reagan’s ministry website
The Bible never specifically defines the timing of the Rapture by tying it to any other event like the re-establishment of Israel or the rebuilding of the Temple. Even its proximity to the Tribulation is inferred rather than definitely stated. That’s because the Rapture is an imminent event that could occur at any moment.
[ http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_revelation8.php ]
—
Another one here —
RaptureReady website
Why do people say the rapture is imminent?
God’s Word clearly teaches imminence of the rapture and emphasizes that we should always be ready for that event!
“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Mat. 24:44).
“Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch” (Mk. 13:35-37).
“Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee” (Rev. 3:3).
[ http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq380.html ]
—
Another one here —
Thomas Ice’s website, Pre-Trib.org
Why Christ Can Return At Any Moment
Look at these verses stating that Christ could return at any moment, without warning. In their specific contexts, they instruct believers to wait and look for the Lord’s coming at any moment. Thus, these passages teach the doctrine of imminence.
— 1 Corinthians 1:7-”awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,”
— 1 Corinthians 16:22-”Maranatha.” “Mar” (”Lord”), “ana” (”our”), and “tha” (”come”), meaning “our Lord, come.” The Arabic greeting implies an eager expectation.
— Philippians 3:20-”For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;”
— Philippians 4:5-”The Lord is near.”
— 1 Thessalonians 1:10-”to wait for His Son from heaven,”
— 1 Thessalonians 5:6-”so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.”
— 1Timothy 6:14-”that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,”
— Titus 2:13-”looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;”
— Hebrews 9:28-”so Christ . . . shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.”
— James 5:7-9-”Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. . . . for the coming of the Lord is at hand. . . . behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.”
— 1 Peter 1:13 -”fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
— Jude21-”waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.”
— Revelation 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20-”’I am coming quickly!’” This means that Christ could come at any moment, quickly without warning.
— Revelation 22:17, 20-”And the Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come.’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come.’”
“He who testifies to these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.”
[ http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=251 ]
AND..., of course, that’s one of the things to discuss on such a “Rapture” thread — just this very thing... Is the Rapture an “imminent event” and is it true what all these Bible teachers say about the Doctrine of Imminence?
You have made it patently clear that you do not believe in the Rapture,Just for the record I do believe in the Blessed Hope : the Rapture.
than why are you posting on a Rapture Caucus ?
You said — “I have some thoughts, however I do not want to violate ST’s caucus.”
—
Okay, let me say something in regards to that. We are discussing the pre-trib, mid-trib and pre-wrath Rapture here. And you’ll notice that “trib” is a part of that, in discussing the Rapture. That’s the “Tribulation”. So, the “Tribulation” is an “automatic given” in this discussion of the Rapture.
Furthermore, some of the discussion regarding the position of the Rapture, (whether it’s any one particular one of those three positions — in the “timing” of how the Tribulation plays out) — is going to require just a little bit of discussing the events surrounding the Rapture and what happens in the Tribulation — or whether something is plainly *not relevant* to the Tribulation at all, and perhaps not relevant to the Rapture at all.
So, what I’m trying to say is that the Gog/Magog war, may be relevant, if one is giving it a firm position within the Tribulation and that relates to the timing of the Rapture in regards to that Gog/Magog war.’
I’m just trying to give a little bit of leeway here to wrap it around some of the “timing” of the Rapture and where it fits into the timing of the Tribulation (since all the “positions” are “in relation to” the Tribulation).
I hope you see what I mean... :-)
It’s like, is it completely outside of the Tribulation and therefore, we may or may not see it, or maybe we will see it if we’re taking one of the other positions having to do with the Rapture... well..., I hope you get it.
Don’t turn it into a Gog/Magog thread, but it may have something to do with the timing of the Rapture...
Okay, the next part of what you were talking about... :-)
You first quoted me saying — “this is talking about a Spring Festival, when proponents of this say that those are fulfilled and only the Fall Festivals are left to fulfill.”
Then you replied and said — I once subscribed to that theory, however it seems to be addressed to Israel only.
Passover as the rapture will surprise many “christians” as they do not celebrate Passover as Yah’shua commanded it to be celebrated.
—
Okay, so if I understand right, you don’t subscribe to that idea any longer, that Jesus Christ fulfilled the “Seven Festivals” as given in the Bible (the Spring Festivals and the Fall Festivals) as representing what Christ fulfilled in His ministry on earth.
And that’s perfectly fine. I’m not complaining about that at all. I think people should know about it and be aware that it is “out there” and there are proponents to it and that the Rapture is the next item on the “Festival list” to come. At least they should be aware of it.
And furthermore, even though I’m not completely sold on the idea and how it’s presented, it is intriguing and it does “make sense”. By that, I mean, I can understand how these people “put it together” and how they represent it. It “all fits” according to what they say.
SO..., what I would ask — is if you don’t subscribe to this “presentation” — exactly what kind of thing are you presenting that you do subscribe to. I don’t understand it and haven’t seen it presented. Like I said, even if I don’t fully buy into this other idea — I can at least understand how they put it all together and it makes sense.
I don’t have any kind of “framework” that you seem to be presenting (whatever it is). Perhaps you could present the framework for what you’re saying and how it fits into the timing of the Rapture (of course, “timing” in a general sense, because we cannot know the exact time, as the Bible says that very explicitly...).
These other people who propose the Spring Festivals and Fall Festivals as representing the First and Second coming of Christ, do a good job of presenting the whole picture and helping you understand how it all fits together, whether you believe it or not. And that’s what I would be asking for — the “complete picture” of what you’re saying, in regards to how it fits in with the Rapture and/or the general timing of it.
—
For others, I will post a shortened version of the Festivals of the Lord, and how it fits together. I did post this very thing about six or seven years ago, on Free Republic. If I can find that thread, I’ll refer to it. It was fairly complete.
Thanks XeniaSt...
As do I. Sadly, the RM has allowed an ill-fitting caucus label to be invented.
But I was only asking a question as to what your particular link had to do with the subject at hand. I see no reference to the rapture there.
“topcat54” you were saying to “XeniaSt” — But I was only asking a question as to what your particular link had to do with the subject at hand. I see no reference to the rapture there.
—
I’m trusting that XeniaSt is going to let us (the readers) know. If there is something there, that pertains to the Rapture (and I believe that’s the answer I got back), then I would like to hear about it. And I would like to see that “framework” — in the same sense and the same way that those other proponents of the “Seven Festivals of the Messiah” give their framework for what they present. I would like to “see the picture” that is being presented in relation to the Rapture...
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And you also said, topcat54 — As do I. Sadly, the RM has allowed an ill-fitting caucus label to be invented.
—
Ummm..., I can’t say that it’s an ill-fitting caucus label. I agree with the designation of it being for pre-trib, mid-trib and pre-wrath. That fits the idea of the commonality of all these people and their positions.
They all have a common identity and common position, even if they are slightly different in timing. They all fit a “major position” of the Church, in regards to the Rapture, and thus — they should all be allowed to discuss this — within this group and amongst themselves. It’s very helpful for these people to come together and not be hassled about the “very concept” of the Rapture being viable, in the context that they support.
The obvious problem is that by using the generic term "rapture" to refer to but one version of the "rapture" you make it appear as if the rest of us do not believe in the "rapture" at all. That is plainly not true. I believe that Christ will return for His people, will raise the dead and transform the living, catching them up to be with Him at His appearing, just as Paul says in 1 Thess. 4:16-18.
Now, if you had labeled the thread [pre-Second Coming Rapture Caucus] or [Dispensational Caucus] or something similar, that would make it clear that the difference is the timing of the rapture not the fact of the rapture as the blessed hope of the believer.
Okay, I said earlier — “For others, I will post a shortened version of the Festivals of the Lord, and how it fits together. I did post this very thing about six or seven years ago, on Free Republic. If I can find that thread, I’ll refer to it. It was fairly complete.
The Seven Festivals Of The Messiah
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a39e032ca390d.htm
Posted on 10/08/2000 01:39:38 PDT by Star Traveler
As you can see, I posted it on October 8, 2000 — boy that was a long time ago... LOL...
BUT, be aware, the link doesn’t work for me about 6 times out of 7. Most of the time I come up with a error message and/or a blank page. But, if I keep “reloading” the page, it will finally come up, sooner or later.
If it does finally “come up” for you — then download the entire page on your computer, in case you can’t get back to it again. Sorry, but apparently really old threads don’t load well...
I may try reposting it sometime. in its own thread again.
You were saying — “Now, if you had labeled the thread [pre-Second Coming Rapture Caucus] or [Dispensational Caucus] or something similar, that would make it clear that the difference is the timing of the rapture not the fact of the rapture as the blessed hope of the believer.”
—
Well, I will be labeling it clearly, in any future threads, with the words, as requested by the Religion Moderator — pre-trib, mid-trib and pre-wrath — and bolded — in my initial posting of the thread (per post #80).
And, I would say that, as a “group” these people (in those categories) are all very similar and common together — as opposed to “post-trib”..., which is why that dictionary definition came up the way he indicated above (per post #78)... it makes sense, really...
I hope you do understand the “commonality” that is there, among this particular group and why they would want to talk together, without having to always get into a hassle about something outside of what they really would like to discuss...
And the purpose of the post I’m replying to was obviously to demonstrate pure hearted 100% total compliance with the spirit and letter of the Caucus designation
vs
causing trouble on a caucus thread one “just happened” to disagree with.
Impressive.
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