Posted on 03/18/2009 10:27:27 PM PDT by Star Traveler
Okay, good idea...
THE CASE FOR RAPTURE ON A JEWISH FEAST DAY
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/rapture-on-a-jewish-feast-day/
Some Prophecy Teachers teach that the Feast of Trumpets will be the future Jewish feast that the Church is raptured on. Others teach that the Church is not bound by the Jewish festivals. Why would God(Jesus)have all the types and shadows of Rapture,Resurection,and Judgement evident in a couple of jewish feast days and then Rapture the Church any old day?
Q. Some Prophecy Teachers today teach that the Feast of Trumpets will be the future Jewish feast that the Church is raptured on.They also hold to the view of imminency. 2 Prophecy Teachers I know teach that the Church is not bound by the Jewish festivals meaning Christ could come on any old day.
Why would God(Jesus)have all the types and shadows of Rapture,Resurection,and Judgement evident in a couple of jewish feast days and then Rapture the Church any old day?
A. The most direct answer to your question is that the timing of the Rapture is a secret. Therefore it can’t be connected to any other specific event of the End Times, whether Jewish or Gentile.
Personally I think it’s a number specific event rather than a date specific one. What I mean by that is according to Romans 11:25 there seems to be a predetermined number of believers for the Church and when that number is reached the age of the Church is over. The Greek word translated fullness, or full number, comes from a nautical term meaning the size of crew necessary for a ship to sail. Before it was reached the ship couldn’t sail, and any extra was surplus. The one translated “come in” means to arrive at a destination. So by his choice of words, I believe Paul was talking about the Rapture.
No one knows what that number is, or how close we are to reaching it, but theoretically the very next person who gives his or her heart to the Lord could complete the church’s membership. If so, the rapture would occur. Therefore, it could happen any day.
All of the Seven Levitical Feasts are thought to have both a historical and a prophetic fulfillment. Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits were all fulfilled in the Lord’s 1st coming. I believe The Feast of Trumpets will be fulfilled by the 2nd Coming, Tabernacles by the Millennium, and Yom Kippur by the Great White Throne judgment.
That leaves Pentecost. Some believe it was fulfilled in the birth of the Church, and some see and End Times fulfillment yet to come. (If the Rapture does take place on a Jewish Feast day, Pentecost is a much more likely candidate than Trumpets.) But to tie the Rapture to any known event is to destroy the Doctrine of Imminence, something many in the Church hold dear to their hearts.
15. Rapture Questions Continue: Our Blessed Hope - Chuck Missler
http://khouse.org/articles/2002/444/print/
Our Blessed Hope
by Chuck Missler
We continue to receive many questions concerning the “Rapture” of the church and its apparent contrast with the “Second Coming” of Jesus Christ. Where does this strange view come from? Is the term “rapture” even in the Bible?
Clearly, the idea of the Rapture can be considered the most preposterous belief in Biblical Christianity. It reminds me of the famous quote by Dr. Richard Feynman, speaking of quantum physics:
I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics... in fact, it is often stated of all the theories proposed in this century, the silliest is quantum theory. Some say that the only thing that quantum theory has going for it, in fact, is that it is unquestionably correct.
The situation regarding the doctrine of the Rapture is painfully similar.
Thanks for posting that information regarding a connection between the Rapture and a Jewish Feast Day. I’ve considered that. I’ll have to read that more closely a bit later on.
Yes, that’s a good article from Church Missler on the Rapture. I remember getting one of his audio downloads about the Rapture, a long while back. I’ve still got it around here somewhere on my computer... :-)
The Blessing Of The Sun - Birchat HaChama (April 8th)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2209709/posts
I don’t mind being pinged directly to a thread, if you have one — but — in this thread, I don’t see the connection with the Rapture, and this is a Rapture Caucus.
If you care to make a connection with the Rapture, as in pre-trib, mid-trib or pre-wrath, please do. You’ll have to enlighten me on that one... :-)
ST,
Do you think this is for real????
What do you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPZdLqGG7HY&feature=player_embedded
There is a British Documentary coming out this Easter on the Rapture..I am trying to find info on it..
Maybe April 8, 2009 is a big day?
You said — “Maybe April 8, 2009 is a big day?”
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Maybe so..., it’s one week after April Fools day! LOL..
But, you know..., this should bring out a few posts on the issue of “imminence” in regards to the Rapture, and how we won’t know the exact time for it, although it does appear that we’ll know the general season for it.
Is the Rapture an event that comes without prophetic events which have to be fulfilled “before” the Rapture takes place? In other words, it comes without warning...
Ummm..., I didn’t get anything at that link regarding the Rapture... sorry...
Howdy - I understand you probably get “all types” regarding this subject, and the article I posted is somewhat arcane.
Here is my summary:
April 8th will be (arguably) only the third time in history that there has been this conjunction of observances associated with Pesach (Passover). The last two corresponded to major redemptive events for Israel: 1)Release from Egypt, 2) Purim (read Esther).
Therefore, there are some who are looking for something big coming soon. The Jewish folks who are highlighting this are expecting a soon redemption. Here is another interesting related article:
http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/31425/The_Story_Of_Our_Generation_Roy_S._Neuberger.html
Of course, the connection to Christian eschatology and discussion regarding Rapture timing are related to the fulfillment of the Feasts of Israel by the first and second coming of the Savior Messiah Jesus.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
THANKS TONS.
And thanks tons, RM for such excellent training and leading of this herd of cats!
You said — Howdy - I understand you probably get “all types” regarding this subject, and the article I posted is somewhat arcane.
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Yeah, this subject on the Rapture, with some, can get carried away, at times with all sorts of different ideas. The key here is to stay within the boundaries of what the Bible has given us, and we can use “teaching” from others, in that regard, if they use Biblical support.
And I wouldn’t want anyone to get the idea that the Rapture was mainly associated with arcane and secret ideas in Christian circles. It’s not!
The subject of the Rapture is well-known in the Christian community and is well-established as a mainstream Christian doctrine. Of course there are some naysayers to the Rapture, in terms of what we’re talking about here. But, we’re concentrating on supporting the Rapture and doing so in a open and clear and Biblical way.
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And then you were saying — April 8th will be (arguably) only the third time in history that there has been this conjunction of observances associated with Pesach (Passover). The last two corresponded to major redemptive events for Israel: 1)Release from Egypt, 2) Purim (read Esther).
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Now, in regards to *one particular aspect* of this idea that you’ve presented (referencing the other article) — it’s that (as you say...) this is only the third time in history that there is some unique conjunction of observances associated with Passover. So, this gives it an “exact time” which will not repeat (or hardly at all, according to what you’re saying). This puts it in that category of saying, “This is the time” because of its very unique circumstances. I would have to say that just about *all* of the Rapture teachers/preachers/proponents do *not* subscribe to the idea that the Rapture is identifiable down to a particular day.
In reference to some who have explored the idea of the “Seven Festivals of the Lord” being prophetic of Jesus Christ’s ministry and that one of them may be related to the Rapture, is not putting it down to one particular date (although it comes close by saying that the Rapture is related to one particular time of the year [that festival], or maybe next year, or the year after or ten years from now... LOL...). But, they never say “It’s this particular year!” And anyone who has done that in the past, has always been shown to be wrong.
Having said that, it’s also apparent (at least to me) that we can know that we are in the “time of the end” — at which time the Rapture will be happening “soon” (but, an “unknown soon”...).
I’m afraid that this (i.e. your article referenced) would go against the teaching of the “imminence” of the Rapture.
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And lastly, you were saying — “Of course, the connection to Christian eschatology and discussion regarding Rapture timing are related to the fulfillment of the Feasts of Israel by the first and second coming of the Savior Messiah Jesus.”
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Ummm.., let me say first, that just because “others” think that there is going to be some “major event” happening, and they connect that major event with one thing or another, or a prophecy of theirs or some prophet of theirs saying so — doesn’t mean that all these other so-called “major events” that others may be predicting are related to the Rapture... LOL...
We’re primarily coming at this from strictly the Bible and its teaching. And, as I said, we can get help from teachers/preachers/propoents of the Rapture in what they say and write — as long as we’re anchored into the Bible in what they say and reason.
Okay, in connection with the fulfillment of the Feasts by Jesus Christ — yes, I have read about that. And it does sound very intriguing. And — if that is the case — then Jesus has *already fulfilled* the one concerning Passover, and that’s done. These proponents of the idea that Jesus Christ is fulfilling prophecy as shown by the Feasts of the Lord, have shown them to be sequentially fulfilled by Jesus, in the Spring Festivals and the Fall Festivals. The Spring Festivals are fulfilled and done (i.e., fulfilled by Christ) at the present time and the next one on the list of Festivals to be fulfilled (not yet done yet) is the Feast of Trumpets.
And also, and maybe easier to understand, these proponents of this idea are saying that the Spring Festivals are related to Jesus Christ’s *First Coming* — while the Fall Festivals are related to his *Second Coming* (with a “gap” in between the Spring and Fall Festivals). You’re article fails on this count, too...
So, unless you are saying that Jesus Christ is going to do a “do-over” on the Passover Festival (prophetically speaking), because He apparently wasn’t satisfied with His first time around, this doesn’t appear to “fit” the model, as given by these proponents of the “Festivals of the Messiah” (and His fulfillment of them) — and *particularly* not in relation to the Rapture.
You did post a link that would work well here, though...
What Must I Do to Be Saved?
By: John F. Walvoord
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=5570
A key and essential part of the Rapture, is that one must be saved, in the first place. We must never forget that.
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I post that from your other thread, because John F. Walvoord is an excellent resource on the Rapture, for anyone who is interested. I’ll include his biography for reference (as it is given at that website link).
You can learn a lot about the subject of the Rapture from Walvoord.
John F. Walvoord, long-time president of Dallas Theological Seminary, was one of the most prominent evangelical scholars of his generation. He is considered perhaps the world’s foremost interpreter of biblical prophecy.
John F. Walvoord, long-time president of Dallas Theological Seminary, was one of the most prominent evangelical scholars of his generation. He is considered perhaps the world’s foremost interpreter of biblical prophecy.
John is perhaps best known for his bestselling work on Bible prophecy, Armageddon, Oil and the Middle East Crisis, which sold over 2 million copies and was printed in 16 languages. Shortly after the publication of the second, revised edition in 1990 Dr. Walvoord received a call from The White House requesting a copy. It made a powerful impression; more copies were requested almost immediately. Members of President George H.W. Bush’s White House Staff read it to deepen their understanding of events in the Middle East. A completed updated an revised version, coauthored by Dr. Mark Hitchcock, Armageddon, Oil and Terror, was released by Tyndale House in April 2007.
John was born May 10, 1910, in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, to the Superintendent of Schools, John Garrett Walvoord and wife, Mary Flipse. Though reared a Presbyterian, and having memorized the catechisms and attended the church his father started in Cedar Grove, Wisconsin, John did not cast his soul upon Christ for his eternal salvation until he heard Dr. William McCarroll at the Cicero Bible Church explain what salvation really was. After graduating from Racine High School, he attended Wheaton College in Illinois, graduating, where he played on the college football team and distinguished himself academically. He received his Bachelor of Arts degree in 1931. That fall Walvoord entered the fledgling Dallas Seminary, where he earned his bachelor’s and master’s of theology (Th.B, Th.M.) degrees, magna cum laude, in 1934 and doctorate in theology (Th.D.) in 1936. He went on to receive an M.A. in philosophy from Texas Christian University in 1945. Wheaton College awarded him a doctor of divinity (D.D.) in 1960; Liberty University conferred the Doctor of Letters (Litt.D.) on him in 1984.
Geraldine Dolores Lundgren, who would later become Mrs. John F. Walvoord, was born September 6, 1914 in Geneva, Illinois. After developing avenues of ministry in music and youth programs in her church, Geraldine continued her education at Wheaton College and Northern Illinois University. It was during this time that Geraldine’s sister, Harriet Lundgren, began dating Ellwood Evans, a student from Dallas Theological Seminary. One Christmas holiday, another theology student traveled with Ellwood as he headed north to visit Harriet. When they arrived, Ellwood made the simple introduction, “Geraldine, I want you to meet my friend John Walvoord.”
John accepted the invitation to stay for dinner before traveling on to his parents’ home in Wisconsin. Over the next several years more than a few letters and visits cultivated their friendship into a lifelong romance. He married Geraldine in 1939 in her hometown of Geneva, Illinois, and that same year supervised the building of their first home (a compact five rooms) in Fort Worth, Texas, where he also served as pastor of the Rosen Heights Presbyterian Church.
John’s first book, The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit, was published in 1943. It was the first of more than 30 books on biblical theology and the Christian faith that he authored or co-authored over the next 60 years. He was a charter member of the Evangelical Theological Society, and served as president in 1954. For twelve years he also served on the revision committee for the New Scofield Reference Bible.
John was a member of the Dallas Theological Seminary faculty for 50 years, from 1936 to 1986. He served as president of Dallas Seminary from 1952 to 1986, and as chancellor until 2001. He continued to teach and preach until a few weeks before his death at the age of 92. Geraldine partnered in his Seminary ministry by launching and leading the Dallas Seminary Wives’ Fellowship in 1953. This educational ministry to the spouses of what was then an all-male student body continued under her leadership for more than 40 years.
Under Dr. Walvoord’s presidency, Dallas Theological Seminary enrollment grew from 300 to over 1,700, four major educational buildings were erected on campus, and the graduate degree programs increased from three to six. One of the world’s largest, the Seminary is recognized for its commitment to the inerrancy of the Scriptures, premillennial theology, and biblical preaching and teaching.
Dr. Walvoord is known worldwide for his evangelical scholarship in Christology, pneumatology (the doctrine of the Holy Spirit), and eschatology (prophecy and the end times). A committed and profound dispensationalist, the Bible was always at the heart of Dr. Walvoord’s life. He sums up its importance:
“The comprehensive sweep of the Bible, as it looks at history from God’s point of view and then presents the glorious future that awaits the child of God, gives the Christian a life of meaningful activity. It provides a system of values that transcends the materialism of our day, and it gives us a glorious hope of a world to come where there is much happiness.”
I am all for depending completely on God’s Word, the Bible. I will get back to you with more thoughts later.
God Bless!
When I first began to study, I would argue with pastors and anyone I could find. One day a pstor told me I wasn’t going to be much good to the Kingdom as long as I wanted to argue over theology.
It always comes down to the different sides throwing the same Scriptures around in the same fashion. Nobody profits but Satan when the brethren divides against itself.
Discussions are fine, but arguments are better left alone.
The food is indeed great in Georgia. My relatives live in Pike County. My wife and I visited two years ago and I remember the wonderful food.
My favorite David Jeremiah books are “Escape the Coming Night,” and “The Handwriting on the Wall.”
I went to see Chuck and Hal Lindsey and Dave Hunt at a prophecy conference in 1996. Chuck dodged his Y-2-K sensationalism for quite a while.
Also see Torah codes predict, and warn about, Obama presidency
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
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