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The Rapture [RAPTURE CAUCUS]
Lamb & Lion Ministries ^ | Dr. David Reagan

Posted on 03/18/2009 10:27:27 PM PDT by Star Traveler

The Rapture [RAPTURE CAUCUS]

What is it? Who will it affect? When is it most likely to take place?
by Dr. David R. Reagan
http://www.lamblion.com/about_staff_reagan.php

The Rapture is a glorious event which God has promised to the Church.

The promise is that someday very soon, at the blowing of a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, Jesus will appear in the sky and take up His Church, living and dead, to Heaven.

The Term

The term "Rapture" comes from a Latin word, "rapio," that means "to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out." It is, in turn, a translation of the Greek word, "harpazo."

So, "Rapture" is a Biblical word that comes right out of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In the New American Standard Version, the English phrase, "caught up," is used. The same phrase is used in the King James and New International Versions.

A Promise to the Church

The concept of the Rapture was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets because it is a promise to the New Testament Church and not to the saints of God who lived before the establishment of the Church. Jesus will return as a bridegroom for His bride, and that bride consists only of Church Age saints.

The saints of Old Testament times will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation and not at the time of the Rapture of the Church. Daniel reveals this fact in Daniel 12:1-2 where he says that the saints of that age will be resurrected at the end of the "time of distress."

Biblical References

The first clear mention of the Rapture in Scripture is found in the words of Jesus recorded in John 14:1-4. Jesus said, "I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

The most detailed revelation of the actual events related to the Rapture is given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He says that when Jesus appears, the dead in Christ (Church Age saints) will be resurrected and caught up first. Then, those of us who are alive in Christ will be translated "to meet the Lord in the air."

Paul mentions the Rapture again in 1 Corinthians 15 — his famous chapter on the resurrection of the dead: "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet" (verses 51-52).

Paul's reference here to being changed is an allusion to the fact that the saints will receive glorified bodies that will be imperishable, immortal, and perfected (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 50-55 and Isaiah 35:5-6).

A Summary

To summarize, these passages teach that the shout of an archangel and the blowing of a trumpet will herald the sudden appearance of Jesus in the heavens (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The dead in Christ will be resurrected and rise up to meet the Lord in the sky. Then, those saints who are alive will be "caught up" to the Lord. Paul concludes his description in 1 Thessalonians 4 by encouraging his readers to "comfort one another with these words."

And truly the Rapture is a comforting thought! Consider the promises contained in the concept of the Rapture. Jesus will bring with Him the spirits of those who have died in Him (1 Thessalonians 4:14). He will resurrect their bodies in a great miracle of re-creation; He will reunite their bodies with their spirits; and He will then glorify their bodies, making them immortal. And those believers who are living will not even taste death. Rather, they will be caught up to the Lord, and in transit, they will be translated from mortal to immortal.

All my life I have heard that there are two things no one can avoid: taxes and death. Well, that is not true. According to 1 Thessalonians 4, a whole generation of believers will escape death. Taxes appear to be the only inevitability!

The Timing

The most controversial aspect of the Rapture is its timing. Some place it at the end of the Tribulation, making it one and the same event as the Second Coming. Others place it in the middle of the Tribulation. Still others believe that it will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation.

The reason for these differing viewpoints is that the exact time of the Rapture is not precisely revealed in scripture. It is only inferred. There is, therefore, room for honest differences of opinion, and lines of fellowship should certainly not be drawn over differences regarding this point, even though it is an important point.

Post-Tribulation Rapture

Those who place the timing at the end of the Tribulation usually base their argument on two parables in Matthew 13 and on the Lord's Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.

In Matthew 24 the Lord portrays His gathering of the saints as an event that will take place "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29). This certainly sounds like a post-Tribulation Rapture. But it must be kept in mind that the book of Matthew was written to the Jews, and therefore the recording of Jesus' speech by Matthew has a distinctively Jewish flavor to it as compared to Luke's record of the same speech.

Note, for example, Matthew's references to Judea and to Jewish law regarding travel on the Sabbath (Matthew 24:15-20). These are omitted in Luke's account. Instead, Luke speaks of the saints looking up for deliverance "to escape all these things" when the end time signs "begin to take place" (Luke 21:28, 36). The saints in Matthew are instructed to flee from Judea and hide. The saints in Luke are told to look up for deliverance.

It appears, therefore, that Matthew and Luke are speaking of two different sets of saints. The saints in Matthew's account are most likely Jews who receive Jesus as their Messiah during the Tribulation. The saints in Luke are those who receive Christ before the Tribulation begins. Most of those who accept the Lord during the Tribulation will be martyred (Revelation 7:9-14). Those who live to the end will be gathered by the angels of the Lord (Matthew 24:31).

The parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-30) and the parable of the dragnet (Matthew 13:47-50) can be explained in the same way. They refer to a separation of saints and sinners that will take place at the end of the Tribulation. The saints are those who receive Jesus as their Savior during the Tribulation (Gentile and Jew) and who live to the end of that awful period.

The Bible clearly teaches that the Rapture is an event that is separate and apart from the Second Coming. The two simply cannot be combined into one event.

Mid-Tribulation Rapture

There are variations of the mid-Tribulation Rapture concept. The most common is that the Church will be taken out in the exact middle of the Tribulation, at the point in time when the Antichrist is revealed.

This concept is based upon a statement in 1 Corinthians 15:52 which says that the Rapture will occur at the blowing of "the last trumpet." This trumpet is then identified with the seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments in the book of Revelation. Since the blowing of the seventh trumpet is recorded in Revelation 11, the mid-point of the Tribulation, the conclusion is that the Rapture must occur in the middle of the Tribulation.

But there are two problems with this interpretation. The first is that the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is blown for believers whereas the seven trumpets of Revelation 8, 9 and 11 are sounded for unbelievers. The Revelation trumpets have no relevance for the Church. The last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is a trumpet for the righteous. The last trumpet for the unrighteous is the one described in Revelation 11.

Another problem with this interpretation is that the passage in Revelation 11 that portrays the sounding of the seventh trumpet is a "flash forward" to the end of the Tribulation. Flash forwards are very common in the book of Revelation. They occur after something terrible is described in order to assure the reader that everything is going to turn out all right when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation.

Thus, the eighth and ninth chapters of Revelation, which describe the horrors of the trumpet judgments, are followed immediately by a flash forward in chapter 10 that pictures the return of Jesus in victory at the end of the Tribulation. The mid-Tribulation action resumes in chapter 11 with a description of the killing of the two great prophets of God by the Antichrist. Then, to offset that terrible event, we are presented with another flash forward, beginning with verse 15. The seventh trumpet is sounded and we find ourselves propelled forward to the end of the Tribulation when "the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord."

The point is that the seventh trumpet of Revelation relates to the end of the Tribulation and not the middle. It is the same trumpet that is referred to in Matthew 24:31, the trumpet that will be blown to announce the Second Coming of Jesus. It is therefore no basis for an argument in behalf of a mid-Tribulation Rapture.

Pre-Wrath Rapture

A variation of the mid-Tribulation Rapture is the pre-wrath Rapture concept that places the Rapture at the beginning of the last quarter of the Tribulation, about five and a half years into the Tribulation.

The argument for this view is that the Church is promised protection only from the wrath of God and not the wrath of Man or of Satan. It is then argued that only the bowl judgments in the last quarter of the Tribulation (Revelation 16) represent the wrath of God.

But the argument for this view disintegrates when you consider two facts. First, it is Jesus Himself who breaks the seals that launch each of the seal judgments recorded in Revelation 6. These judgments occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. Second, the seven angels who blow the trumpets that initiate each of the trumpet judgments are given their trumpets at the throne of God (Revelation 8:2).

All the judgments of Revelation are clearly superintended by God. That is the reason we are told in Revelation 15:1 that the bowl judgments at the end of the Tribulation will finish the wrath of God, not begin His wrath.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture

I believe the best inference of Scripture is that the Rapture will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. The most important reason I believe this has to do with the issue of imminence.

Over and over in Scripture we are told to watch for the appearing of the Lord. We are told "to be ready" (Matthew 24:44), "to be on the alert" (Matthew 24:42), "to be dressed in readiness" (Luke 12:35), and to "keep your lamps alight" (Luke 12:35). The clear force of these persistent warnings is that Jesus can appear at any moment.

Only the pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture allows for the imminence of the Lord's appearing for His Church. When the Rapture is placed at any other point in time, the imminence of the Lord's appearing is destroyed because other prophetic events must happen first.

For example, if the Rapture is going to occur in mid-Tribulation, then why should I live looking for the Lord's appearing at any moment? I would be looking instead for an Israeli peace treaty, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the revelation of the Antichrist. Then and only then could the Lord appear.

Focus

This raises the issue of what we are to be looking for. Nowhere are believers told to watch for the appearance of the Antichrist. On the contrary, we are told to watch for Jesus Christ. In Titus 2:13 Paul says we are to live "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." Likewise, Peter urges us to "fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13). John completes the apostolic chorus by similarly urging us to "fix our hope on Him" at His appearing (1 John 3:2-3).

Only Matthew speaks of watching for the Antichrist (Matthew 24:15), but he is speaking to the Jews living in Israel in the middle of the Tribulation when the Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Temple.

Wrath

Another argument in behalf of a pre-Tribulation Rapture has to do with the promises of God to protect the Church from His wrath. As has already been demonstrated, the book of Revelation shows that the wrath of God will be poured out during the entire period of the Tribulation.

The Word promises over and over that the Church will be delivered from God's wrath. Romans 5:9 says that "we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him [Jesus]." 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that we are waiting "for His Son from heaven... who will deliver us from the wrath to come." The promise is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 — "God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Deliverance

Some argue that God could supernaturally protect the Church during the Tribulation. Yes, He could. In fact, He promises to do just that for the 144,000 Jews who will be sealed as bond-servants at the beginning of the Tribulation (Revelation 7:1-8).

But God's promise to the Church during the Tribulation is not one of protection but one of deliverance. Jesus said we would "escape" the horrors of the Tribulation (Luke 21:3-6). Paul says Jesus is coming to "deliver" us from God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Symbolism

There are several prophetic types that seem to affirm the concept of deliverance from Tribulation.

Take Enoch for example. He was a prophet to the Gentiles who was raptured out of the world before God poured out His wrath in the great flood of Noah's time. Enoch appears to be a type of the Gentile Church that will be taken out of the world before God pours out His wrath again. If so, then Noah and his family are a type of the Jewish remnant that will be protected through the Tribulation.

Another Old Testament symbolic type which points toward a pre-Tribulation Rapture is the experience of Lot and his family. They were delivered out of Sodom and Gomorrah before those cities were destroyed.

The Apostle Peter alludes to both of these examples in his second epistle. He states that if God spared Noah and Lot, then He surely "knows how to rescue the godly from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment" (2 Peter 2:4-9).

Another beautiful prophetic type is to be found in the Jewish wedding traditions of Jesus' time. After the betrothal, the groom would return to his father's house to prepare a wedding chamber for his bride. He would return for his bride at an unexpected moment, so the bride had to be ready constantly. When he returned, he would take his bride back to his father's house to the chamber he had prepared. He and his bride would then be sealed in the chamber for seven days. When they emerged, a great wedding feast would be celebrated.

Likewise, Jesus has returned to Heaven to prepare a place for His bride, the Church. When He returns for His bride, He will take her to His Father's heavenly home. There He will remain with His bride for seven years (the duration of the Tribulation). The period will end with "the marriage supper of the Lamb" described in Revelation 19. Thus the seven days in the wedding chamber point prophetically to the seven years that Jesus and His bride will remain in Heaven during the Tribulation.

Revelation

Speaking of Revelation, the structure of that book also implies a pre-Tribulation Rapture in a symbolic sense.

The first three chapters focus on the Church. Chapter 4 begins with the door of Heaven opening and John being raptured from the Isle of Patmos to the throne of God in Heaven. The Church is not mentioned thereafter until Revelation 19:7-9 when it is portrayed as the "bride of Christ" in Heaven with Jesus celebrating the "marriage supper of the Lamb." At Revelation 19:11 the door of Heaven opens again, and Jesus emerges riding a white horse on His way to earth, followed by His Church (Revelation 19:14).

The rapture of the Apostle John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type of the Rapture of the Church. Note that it is initiated by the cry of a voice that sounds like the blowing of a trumpet (Revelation 4:1). Since the Tribulation does not begin until Revelation 6, the rapture of John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type that points to a pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

Some counter this argument by pointing out that although the Church is not mentioned in Revelation during that book's description of the Tribulation, there is constant mention of "saints" (for example, Revelation 13:7). But that term is not used in the Bible exclusively to refer to members of the Church. Daniel uses it to refer to Old Testament believers who lived long before the Church was established (Daniel 7:18). The saints referred to in the book of Revelation are most likely those people who will be saved during the Tribulation, after the Church has been taken out of the world.

Paul's Assurance

An interesting argument in behalf of the pre-Tribulation timing of the Rapture can be found in 2 Thessalonians. The church at Thessalonica was in a turmoil because someone had written them a letter under Paul's name stating that they had missed the "gathering to the Lord" and were, in fact, living in "the day of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2).

Paul attempted to calm them down by reminding them of his teaching that the day of the Lord would not come until after the Antichrist is revealed. He then stated that the Antichrist would not be revealed until a restraining force "is taken out of the way" (2 Thessalonians 2:3-7).

There has been much speculation as to the identity of this restraining force that Paul refers to. Some have identified it as the Holy Spirit. But it cannot be the Holy Spirit because there will be people saved during the Tribulation, and no one can be saved apart from the testimony of the Spirit (John 16:8-11 & 1 John 5:7).

Others have identified the restrainer as human government. It is true that government was ordained by God to restrain evil (Romans 13:1-4). But the governments of the world are in rebellion against God and His Son (Psalm 2), and they are therefore a contributor to the evil that characterizes the world. Furthermore, the Tribulation will not be characterized by a lack of government. Rather, it will feature the first true worldwide government (Revelation 13:7).

In my opinion that leaves only one other candidate for Paul's restrainer — and that is the Church. It is the Church that serves as the primary restrainer of evil in the world today as it proclaims the Gospel and stands for righteousness. When the Church fails in this mission, evil multiplies, as Paul graphically points out in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Paul says that society in the end times will be characterized by chaos and despair because "men will hold to a form of religion but will deny its power." When the Church is removed from the world, all hell will literally break loose.

Escapism?

The pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture has often been condemned as "escapism." I think this criticism is unjustified. The Bible itself says that Christians are to "comfort one another" with the thought of the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:18). Is it a comfort to think of the Rapture occurring at the end of the world's worst period of war instead of at the beginning?

Regardless of when the Rapture actually occurs, we need to keep in mind that the Bible teaches that societal conditions are going to grow increasingly worse the closer we get to the Lord's return. That means Christians will suffer tribulation whether or not they go into the Great Tribulation. And that means all of us had better be preparing ourselves for unprecedented suffering and spiritual warfare.

If you are a Christian, you can do that on a daily basis by putting on "the full armor of God" (Ephesians 6:13), praying at all times in the Spirit that you will be able to stand firm against the attacks of Satan (Ephesians 6:14-18).

If you are not a Christian, your only hope is to reach out in faith and receive the free gift of God's salvation which He has provided through His Son, Jesus (John 3:16).


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: christians; davidreagan; endtimes; prophecy; rapture; rapturecaucus
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To: Religion Moderator

Okay, good idea...


81 posted on 03/19/2009 9:43:43 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler

THE CASE FOR RAPTURE ON A JEWISH FEAST DAY

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/rapture-on-a-jewish-feast-day/

Some Prophecy Teachers teach that the Feast of Trumpets will be the future Jewish feast that the Church is raptured on. Others teach that the Church is not bound by the Jewish festivals. Why would God(Jesus)have all the types and shadows of Rapture,Resurection,and Judgement evident in a couple of jewish feast days and then Rapture the Church any old day?

Q. Some Prophecy Teachers today teach that the Feast of Trumpets will be the future Jewish feast that the Church is raptured on.They also hold to the view of imminency. 2 Prophecy Teachers I know teach that the Church is not bound by the Jewish festivals meaning Christ could come on any old day.

Why would God(Jesus)have all the types and shadows of Rapture,Resurection,and Judgement evident in a couple of jewish feast days and then Rapture the Church any old day?

A. The most direct answer to your question is that the timing of the Rapture is a secret. Therefore it can’t be connected to any other specific event of the End Times, whether Jewish or Gentile.

Personally I think it’s a number specific event rather than a date specific one. What I mean by that is according to Romans 11:25 there seems to be a predetermined number of believers for the Church and when that number is reached the age of the Church is over. The Greek word translated fullness, or full number, comes from a nautical term meaning the size of crew necessary for a ship to sail. Before it was reached the ship couldn’t sail, and any extra was surplus. The one translated “come in” means to arrive at a destination. So by his choice of words, I believe Paul was talking about the Rapture.

No one knows what that number is, or how close we are to reaching it, but theoretically the very next person who gives his or her heart to the Lord could complete the church’s membership. If so, the rapture would occur. Therefore, it could happen any day.

All of the Seven Levitical Feasts are thought to have both a historical and a prophetic fulfillment. Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits were all fulfilled in the Lord’s 1st coming. I believe The Feast of Trumpets will be fulfilled by the 2nd Coming, Tabernacles by the Millennium, and Yom Kippur by the Great White Throne judgment.

That leaves Pentecost. Some believe it was fulfilled in the birth of the Church, and some see and End Times fulfillment yet to come. (If the Rapture does take place on a Jewish Feast day, Pentecost is a much more likely candidate than Trumpets.) But to tie the Rapture to any known event is to destroy the Doctrine of Imminence, something many in the Church hold dear to their hearts.


82 posted on 03/19/2009 9:44:59 AM PDT by Jo Nuvark (Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. Gen 12:3)
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To: Star Traveler

15. Rapture Questions Continue: Our Blessed Hope - Chuck Missler
http://khouse.org/articles/2002/444/print/

Our Blessed Hope
by Chuck Missler

We continue to receive many questions concerning the “Rapture” of the church and its apparent contrast with the “Second Coming” of Jesus Christ. Where does this strange view come from? Is the term “rapture” even in the Bible?

Clearly, the idea of the Rapture can be considered the most preposterous belief in Biblical Christianity. It reminds me of the famous quote by Dr. Richard Feynman, speaking of quantum physics:

I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics... in fact, it is often stated of all the theories proposed in this century, the silliest is quantum theory. Some say that the only thing that quantum theory has going for it, in fact, is that it is unquestionably correct.

The situation regarding the doctrine of the Rapture is painfully similar.


83 posted on 03/19/2009 9:47:56 AM PDT by Jo Nuvark (Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. Gen 12:3)
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To: Jo Nuvark

Thanks for posting that information regarding a connection between the Rapture and a Jewish Feast Day. I’ve considered that. I’ll have to read that more closely a bit later on.


84 posted on 03/19/2009 9:52:20 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Jo Nuvark

Yes, that’s a good article from Church Missler on the Rapture. I remember getting one of his audio downloads about the Rapture, a long while back. I’ve still got it around here somewhere on my computer... :-)


85 posted on 03/19/2009 10:00:38 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler

The Blessing Of The Sun - Birchat HaChama (April 8th)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2209709/posts


86 posted on 03/19/2009 10:15:21 AM PDT by Squidpup ("Fight the Good Fight")
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To: Squidpup

I don’t mind being pinged directly to a thread, if you have one — but — in this thread, I don’t see the connection with the Rapture, and this is a Rapture Caucus.

If you care to make a connection with the Rapture, as in pre-trib, mid-trib or pre-wrath, please do. You’ll have to enlighten me on that one... :-)


87 posted on 03/19/2009 10:21:18 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler

ST,
Do you think this is for real????

What do you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPZdLqGG7HY&feature=player_embedded

There is a British Documentary coming out this Easter on the Rapture..I am trying to find info on it..


88 posted on 03/19/2009 10:45:55 AM PDT by TaraP (The RAPTURE: Separation of Church and State)
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To: Star Traveler

Maybe April 8, 2009 is a big day?


89 posted on 03/19/2009 10:50:51 AM PDT by marbren
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To: marbren

You said — “Maybe April 8, 2009 is a big day?”

Maybe so..., it’s one week after April Fools day! LOL..

But, you know..., this should bring out a few posts on the issue of “imminence” in regards to the Rapture, and how we won’t know the exact time for it, although it does appear that we’ll know the general season for it.

Is the Rapture an event that comes without prophetic events which have to be fulfilled “before” the Rapture takes place? In other words, it comes without warning...


90 posted on 03/19/2009 11:10:35 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: TaraP

Ummm..., I didn’t get anything at that link regarding the Rapture... sorry...


91 posted on 03/19/2009 11:13:28 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler

Howdy - I understand you probably get “all types” regarding this subject, and the article I posted is somewhat arcane.

Here is my summary:
April 8th will be (arguably) only the third time in history that there has been this conjunction of observances associated with Pesach (Passover). The last two corresponded to major redemptive events for Israel: 1)Release from Egypt, 2) Purim (read Esther).

Therefore, there are some who are looking for something big coming soon. The Jewish folks who are highlighting this are expecting a soon redemption. Here is another interesting related article:
http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/31425/The_Story_Of_Our_Generation_Roy_S._Neuberger.html

Of course, the connection to Christian eschatology and discussion regarding Rapture timing are related to the fulfillment of the Feasts of Israel by the first and second coming of the Savior Messiah Jesus.


92 posted on 03/19/2009 11:20:44 AM PDT by Squidpup ("Fight the Good Fight")
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To: Star Traveler; Religion Moderator

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

THANKS TONS.

And thanks tons, RM for such excellent training and leading of this herd of cats!


93 posted on 03/19/2009 11:28:07 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Squidpup

You said — Howdy - I understand you probably get “all types” regarding this subject, and the article I posted is somewhat arcane.

Yeah, this subject on the Rapture, with some, can get carried away, at times with all sorts of different ideas. The key here is to stay within the boundaries of what the Bible has given us, and we can use “teaching” from others, in that regard, if they use Biblical support.

And I wouldn’t want anyone to get the idea that the Rapture was mainly associated with arcane and secret ideas in Christian circles. It’s not!

The subject of the Rapture is well-known in the Christian community and is well-established as a mainstream Christian doctrine. Of course there are some naysayers to the Rapture, in terms of what we’re talking about here. But, we’re concentrating on supporting the Rapture and doing so in a open and clear and Biblical way.

===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====

And then you were saying — April 8th will be (arguably) only the third time in history that there has been this conjunction of observances associated with Pesach (Passover). The last two corresponded to major redemptive events for Israel: 1)Release from Egypt, 2) Purim (read Esther).

Now, in regards to *one particular aspect* of this idea that you’ve presented (referencing the other article) — it’s that (as you say...) this is only the third time in history that there is some unique conjunction of observances associated with Passover. So, this gives it an “exact time” which will not repeat (or hardly at all, according to what you’re saying). This puts it in that category of saying, “This is the time” because of its very unique circumstances. I would have to say that just about *all* of the Rapture teachers/preachers/proponents do *not* subscribe to the idea that the Rapture is identifiable down to a particular day.

In reference to some who have explored the idea of the “Seven Festivals of the Lord” being prophetic of Jesus Christ’s ministry and that one of them may be related to the Rapture, is not putting it down to one particular date (although it comes close by saying that the Rapture is related to one particular time of the year [that festival], or maybe next year, or the year after or ten years from now... LOL...). But, they never say “It’s this particular year!” And anyone who has done that in the past, has always been shown to be wrong.

Having said that, it’s also apparent (at least to me) that we can know that we are in the “time of the end” — at which time the Rapture will be happening “soon” (but, an “unknown soon”...).

I’m afraid that this (i.e. your article referenced) would go against the teaching of the “imminence” of the Rapture.

===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =====

And lastly, you were saying — “Of course, the connection to Christian eschatology and discussion regarding Rapture timing are related to the fulfillment of the Feasts of Israel by the first and second coming of the Savior Messiah Jesus.”

Ummm.., let me say first, that just because “others” think that there is going to be some “major event” happening, and they connect that major event with one thing or another, or a prophecy of theirs or some prophet of theirs saying so — doesn’t mean that all these other so-called “major events” that others may be predicting are related to the Rapture... LOL...

We’re primarily coming at this from strictly the Bible and its teaching. And, as I said, we can get help from teachers/preachers/propoents of the Rapture in what they say and write — as long as we’re anchored into the Bible in what they say and reason.

Okay, in connection with the fulfillment of the Feasts by Jesus Christ — yes, I have read about that. And it does sound very intriguing. And — if that is the case — then Jesus has *already fulfilled* the one concerning Passover, and that’s done. These proponents of the idea that Jesus Christ is fulfilling prophecy as shown by the Feasts of the Lord, have shown them to be sequentially fulfilled by Jesus, in the Spring Festivals and the Fall Festivals. The Spring Festivals are fulfilled and done (i.e., fulfilled by Christ) at the present time and the next one on the list of Festivals to be fulfilled (not yet done yet) is the Feast of Trumpets.

And also, and maybe easier to understand, these proponents of this idea are saying that the Spring Festivals are related to Jesus Christ’s *First Coming* — while the Fall Festivals are related to his *Second Coming* (with a “gap” in between the Spring and Fall Festivals). You’re article fails on this count, too...

So, unless you are saying that Jesus Christ is going to do a “do-over” on the Passover Festival (prophetically speaking), because He apparently wasn’t satisfied with His first time around, this doesn’t appear to “fit” the model, as given by these proponents of the “Festivals of the Messiah” (and His fulfillment of them) — and *particularly* not in relation to the Rapture.


94 posted on 03/19/2009 11:58:58 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Squidpup

You did post a link that would work well here, though...

What Must I Do to Be Saved?
By: John F. Walvoord
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=5570

A key and essential part of the Rapture, is that one must be saved, in the first place. We must never forget that.

I post that from your other thread, because John F. Walvoord is an excellent resource on the Rapture, for anyone who is interested. I’ll include his biography for reference (as it is given at that website link).

You can learn a lot about the subject of the Rapture from Walvoord.


John F. Walvoord, long-time president of Dallas Theological Seminary, was one of the most prominent evangelical scholars of his generation. He is considered perhaps the world’s foremost interpreter of biblical prophecy.

John F. Walvoord, long-time president of Dallas Theological Seminary, was one of the most prominent evangelical scholars of his generation. He is considered perhaps the world’s foremost interpreter of biblical prophecy.

John is perhaps best known for his bestselling work on Bible prophecy, Armageddon, Oil and the Middle East Crisis, which sold over 2 million copies and was printed in 16 languages. Shortly after the publication of the second, revised edition in 1990 Dr. Walvoord received a call from The White House requesting a copy. It made a powerful impression; more copies were requested almost immediately. Members of President George H.W. Bush’s White House Staff read it to deepen their understanding of events in the Middle East. A completed updated an revised version, coauthored by Dr. Mark Hitchcock, Armageddon, Oil and Terror, was released by Tyndale House in April 2007.

John was born May 10, 1910, in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, to the Superintendent of Schools, John Garrett Walvoord and wife, Mary Flipse. Though reared a Presbyterian, and having memorized the catechisms and attended the church his father started in Cedar Grove, Wisconsin, John did not cast his soul upon Christ for his eternal salvation until he heard Dr. William McCarroll at the Cicero Bible Church explain what salvation really was. After graduating from Racine High School, he attended Wheaton College in Illinois, graduating, where he played on the college football team and distinguished himself academically. He received his Bachelor of Arts degree in 1931. That fall Walvoord entered the fledgling Dallas Seminary, where he earned his bachelor’s and master’s of theology (Th.B, Th.M.) degrees, magna cum laude, in 1934 and doctorate in theology (Th.D.) in 1936. He went on to receive an M.A. in philosophy from Texas Christian University in 1945. Wheaton College awarded him a doctor of divinity (D.D.) in 1960; Liberty University conferred the Doctor of Letters (Litt.D.) on him in 1984.

Geraldine Dolores Lundgren, who would later become Mrs. John F. Walvoord, was born September 6, 1914 in Geneva, Illinois. After developing avenues of ministry in music and youth programs in her church, Geraldine continued her education at Wheaton College and Northern Illinois University. It was during this time that Geraldine’s sister, Harriet Lundgren, began dating Ellwood Evans, a student from Dallas Theological Seminary. One Christmas holiday, another theology student traveled with Ellwood as he headed north to visit Harriet. When they arrived, Ellwood made the simple introduction, “Geraldine, I want you to meet my friend John Walvoord.”

John accepted the invitation to stay for dinner before traveling on to his parents’ home in Wisconsin. Over the next several years more than a few letters and visits cultivated their friendship into a lifelong romance. He married Geraldine in 1939 in her hometown of Geneva, Illinois, and that same year supervised the building of their first home (a compact five rooms) in Fort Worth, Texas, where he also served as pastor of the Rosen Heights Presbyterian Church.

John’s first book, The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit, was published in 1943. It was the first of more than 30 books on biblical theology and the Christian faith that he authored or co-authored over the next 60 years. He was a charter member of the Evangelical Theological Society, and served as president in 1954. For twelve years he also served on the revision committee for the New Scofield Reference Bible.

John was a member of the Dallas Theological Seminary faculty for 50 years, from 1936 to 1986. He served as president of Dallas Seminary from 1952 to 1986, and as chancellor until 2001. He continued to teach and preach until a few weeks before his death at the age of 92. Geraldine partnered in his Seminary ministry by launching and leading the Dallas Seminary Wives’ Fellowship in 1953. This educational ministry to the spouses of what was then an all-male student body continued under her leadership for more than 40 years.

Under Dr. Walvoord’s presidency, Dallas Theological Seminary enrollment grew from 300 to over 1,700, four major educational buildings were erected on campus, and the graduate degree programs increased from three to six. One of the world’s largest, the Seminary is recognized for its commitment to the inerrancy of the Scriptures, premillennial theology, and biblical preaching and teaching.

Dr. Walvoord is known worldwide for his evangelical scholarship in Christology, pneumatology (the doctrine of the Holy Spirit), and eschatology (prophecy and the end times). A committed and profound dispensationalist, the Bible was always at the heart of Dr. Walvoord’s life. He sums up its importance:

“The comprehensive sweep of the Bible, as it looks at history from God’s point of view and then presents the glorious future that awaits the child of God, gives the Christian a life of meaningful activity. It provides a system of values that transcends the materialism of our day, and it gives us a glorious hope of a world to come where there is much happiness.”



95 posted on 03/19/2009 12:33:02 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler

I am all for depending completely on God’s Word, the Bible. I will get back to you with more thoughts later.
God Bless!


96 posted on 03/19/2009 12:45:24 PM PDT by Squidpup ("Fight the Good Fight")
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To: marbren

When I first began to study, I would argue with pastors and anyone I could find. One day a pstor told me I wasn’t going to be much good to the Kingdom as long as I wanted to argue over theology.

It always comes down to the different sides throwing the same Scriptures around in the same fashion. Nobody profits but Satan when the brethren divides against itself.

Discussions are fine, but arguments are better left alone.


97 posted on 03/19/2009 12:49:08 PM PDT by Luke21
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To: yellowhorse

The food is indeed great in Georgia. My relatives live in Pike County. My wife and I visited two years ago and I remember the wonderful food.

My favorite David Jeremiah books are “Escape the Coming Night,” and “The Handwriting on the Wall.”


98 posted on 03/19/2009 12:53:08 PM PDT by Luke21
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To: Jo Nuvark

I went to see Chuck and Hal Lindsey and Dave Hunt at a prophecy conference in 1996. Chuck dodged his Y-2-K sensationalism for quite a while.


99 posted on 03/19/2009 1:00:00 PM PDT by Luke21
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To: Squidpup; Star Traveler
The Blessing Of The Sun - Birchat HaChama (April 8th) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2209709/posts

Also see Torah codes predict, and warn about, Obama presidency
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
100 posted on 03/19/2009 1:53:15 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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