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To: mountn man

You wrote:

“ASOLUTELY! The ONLY thing that has changed is that today, Christians are covered by grace, and not the law. The law still lets us know whats right and wrong, but we are no longer under condemnation, but grace.”

You’re contradicting yourself. If the OT had the SAME ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY - those were your words - then the punishments would be exactly the same today for anyone who believed the OT to be true. You know this as well. That’s exactly why you now make a distinction where you made none before. Cleary, if the age of grace has nullified the punishments of the law - we don’t believe women should be killed for being rape victims in city limits - then that means the OT does not any longer possess EXACTLY the SAME ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY. It’s authority is different in character or kind.

“There is a profound difference between 24 and 25. 24 describes a woman who is having sex with another mans wife, it doesn’t mention RAPE, but the wording lets us know that she is in town, where other people are around to protect her or come to her aid. That if she doesn’t scream out, she is basically consenting.”

No. Deuteronomy 22:25-27 makes it seem pretty clear that these are cases of forced sex.


67 posted on 04/10/2009 12:22:02 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
You’re contradicting yourself. If the OT had the SAME ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY - those were your words - then the punishments would be exactly the same today for anyone who believed the OT to be true.

There's no contradiction, if your focus is on the spirit of the OT, and not just the written words in it. See John 5:39-40, wherein Jesus spells out the difference between the written words themselves, and the Message they convey.

Jesus taught that the contemporary Jewish take on the Old Testament was missing the point.

For example, look at what Jesus says 6 different times in in Matthew 5 -- "You have heard that it was said ... but I say to you..."

The spiritual authority of the Old Testament is unchanged by Jesus's New Testament message: it's still, "Love God, and Love your neighbor as yourself."

The words of the Old Testament, however.... if you simply rely on them without seeking the spirit, you're sunk.

74 posted on 04/10/2009 12:30:56 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: vladimir998
Deuteronomy 22:22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

So far verse 22 is talking about 2 people having consenting adultery.

When we get to 23, the verse begins with a man and married woman in town and him sleeping with her.

24 then mentions the punishment, and why.:

the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help

and the man because he violated another man's wife.

So it comes down to the woman does not scream for protection, and by her silence gives her consent. Meaning it IS NOT rape. If it were rape she would have screamed.

Now verse 25:

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, 27 for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

So verse 25 specifically calls it rape, and then absolves the girl because she WAS raped.

Now verse 27 ties verse 24 in to the 2 scenarios.

for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

Verse 24 convicts the woman because she did not scream, while 27 absolves her, because there was no one to hear here when/if she did scream.

Now as far as OT vs NT, one must take into entire context. The OT was/is the LAW it points to the Messiah and makes clear what right and wrong is. The NT brings the Messiah and GRACE which supercedes the LAW.

The Law was needed in the OT to let man know what sin was, and sin has to have a consequence. But with Christ and the NT, though the LAW still shows us what sin is, for Christians the consequences change, because the consequences fall on Christ, and we are no longer under condemnation.

The only change between the OT and NT is that sins consequences change, everything else is the same. Grace has always been Gods goal, but before Christ there was no removal of sin.

God hates sin the same OT and NT, how he views the sinner has changed, ONLY for the Christian. Until a person realizes he is a sinner, and that sin seperates him from God, and by faith, accepts Christs as Messiah, and the remover of all sin, past, present and future, he is still under the law. It is faith in Christ, and what he says and has done that changes a mans standing before God. But the Law still lets him know what wrong is.

Now as far as this overall discussion and Easter and Passover. The OT tells us to celebrate Passover, and HOW to celebrate Passover.

What is Passover?

It goes beyond the angel of death going through Egypt and killing the first born male of anyone not having the blood of a perfect lamb on their doorposts.

The secret of Passover wasn't Jew vs Egyptian(gentile). The secret was the blood of a perfect lamb. That lamb being sacrificed, and its blood being put on the door posts of the house. If a Jewish house was without the blood on the door post, they would have lost their first born male, the same as the Egyptian house. Also, if an Egyptian house would have sacrificed a perfect lamb to Jehovah God, and put the blood on their doorposts, the angel would have passed by.

So today, as Christians, Passover has special meaning to us. One, it reminds us of what God did for HIS PEOPLE thousands of years ago. Jews celebrated Passover because God wanted them to remember what he did for them, and to celebrate him. Second, Christ is our perfect lamb, sacrificed, whose blood, causes God's wrath to Passover us, who have accepted him as Messiah.

God gave us Passover as a celebration of what he has done, and a celebration of his promise to us.

Communion he also gave as a celebration for us. Celebrating his death and resurrection. Communion is to be a regular occurence. If we are regularly celebrating communion, what use is adding Easter? Accept to celebrate once again communion.

125 posted on 04/10/2009 2:11:32 PM PDT by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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