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What’s the Point of Creeds?
CERC ^ | 1988 | Peter Kreeft

Posted on 05/01/2009 10:31:49 PM PDT by Salvation

What’s the Point of Creeds?

PETER KREEFT

I remember vividly how deeply moved I was as a young Protestant to hear how one of the Catholic martyrs died...


Peter Kreeft

I remember vividly how deeply moved I was as a young Protestant to hear how one of the Catholic martyrs died: scratching in the sand with his own blood the words of the creed, “Credo ....”( “I believe”).

My heart was moved, but my head did not yet understand. What do these Catholics see in their creeds anyway? How can a set of words be worth dying for? Why have wars been fought over a word? What's the point of creeds?

Then I read Dorothy Sayers' little masterpiece Creed or Chaos?, and I was answered.

The question can be answered by remembering another question, the one Pilate asked Christ in another life-or-death situation: “What is truth?”

And that is the point of the creeds: truth. In fact, Primal Truth, the truth about God. That is why the words of the Creed are sacred words. Just as God's material houses are sacred, so are his verbal houses. Of course God is no more confined to words, even the sacred words of creeds, than he is confined to the sacred buildings of tent or temple, church or cathedral. But both are holy, set apart, sacred. “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. “

Faith has two dimensions: the objective and the subjective. Creeds express these two dimensions: “I believe in God. “ There is an I, a believing subject, and there is God, the object of belief. There is the psychology of believing, which is something in us, and there is the theology of belief, which is the Truth believed. There is the eye, and there is the light. And woe to him who mistakes the one for the other.

When the Church formulated her creeds, humanity was more interested in the light than in the eye. God providentially arranged for the great creeds of the Church to be formulated in ages that cared passionately about objective truth. By modern standards, they ignored the subjective, psychological dimension of faith.

But we moderns fall into the opposite and far worse extreme: we are so interested in the subject that we often forget or even scorn the object. Psychology has become our new religion, as Paul Vitz and Kirk Kilpatrick have both so brilliantly shown.

Yet it's the object, not the subjective act, of faith that makes the creeds sacred. They are sacred because Truth is sacred, not because believing is sacred. Creeds do not say merely what we believe, but what is. Creeds wake us from our dreams and prejudices into objective reality. Creeds do not confine us in little cages, as the modern world thinks; creeds free us into the outdoors, into the real world where the winds of heaven whip around our heads.

What is the object, the Truth? Saint Thomas says that the primary object of faith is not words and statements but God himself. “We believe in God.” Further, as Christians we know God most fully in Christ, God incarnate, and as Catholics we know Christ through Holy Mother Church and her creeds.

When human reason raved, in the Arian heresy, that Christ could not possibly be both fully human and fully divine, Athanasius stood against the world; today we know Christ as he really is because of Athanasius and his creed.

When contemporary forms of the same heresy water down the strong meat” of Christ, the Church again braves the media, the mouth of the world, and calmly thunders the full truth about Christ. True, it is Christ rather than words that is the primary object of the Christian's faith, but what Christ? Here words are crucial.

Two extremes must be avoided: intellectualism and anti-intellectualism, worshipping the words and scorning the words. If the ancient mind tended to the former extreme, the modern mind certainly tends to the latter. Both errors are deadly.

Intellectualism misses the core of faith, both objectively and subjectively. Objectively, the core of faith is God, who is a Person, not a concept. Subjectively, the core of faith is the will, not the intellect. Though informed by the intellect, it is the will that freely chooses to believe.

Faith is not the relation between an intellect and an idea, but the relation between an I and a Thou. That is why faith makes the difference between heaven and hell. God does not send you to hell for flunking his theology exam but for willingly divorcing from him.

Anti-intellectualism also misses the core of faith, both objectively and subjectively. Objectively, because its faith has no object. It calls faith an experience (“the faith experience”) — a term never used by our Lord, Scripture, the creeds, or the popes. Modern people are constantly saying, “Have faith!” But faith in what or whom? They often mean “have faith in faith. “ But faith in faith in what?

Anti-intellectualism is a modern reaction against the modern narrowing of reason to scientific reason. When the ancients and medievals called man a “rational animal”, they did not mean a computerized camera mounted in an ape. They meant by “reason” understanding, wisdom, insight, and conscience as well as logical calculation.

Modern thinkers often forget this dimension of man and think only of reasoning (as in calculating) and feeling. And because they see that faith is not a matter of reasoning, they conclude that it must be a matter of feeling. Thus “I believe” comes to mean “I feel and creeds simply have no place. Faith becomes a “leap” in the dark instead of a leap in the light.

Many of the Church's greatest saints have been doctors of the Church, theologians, philosophers, intellectuals: Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas, Bonaventure. Anti-intellectuals like Tatian and Tertullian and Luther (who called reason “the devil's whore”) often die excommunicated, as heretics.

The Church — repeating what Saint Paul said in Romans 1: 19-20 — even teaches as a matter of faith that God's existence can be known by reason, independent of faith!

The Catholic ideal is the complete person, with a cool head and a warm heart, a hard head and a soft heart. The mere intellectual has a cool heart; the anti-intellectual has a hot head. The intellectual has a hard heart, the anti-intellectual has a soft head. The Church puts the severed parts in the right order because the Church has the blueprint: Christ (Eph 4:13). The Church has always had a conservative head and a liberal heart, and the world has never understood her, just as it never understood Christ.

Creeds are to the head what good works are to the heart: creeds express truth, the head's food, as good works express love, the heart's food. Both are sacred.

If there is any doubt about the need for creeds, it can be settled by fact: the fact that the Church established by Christ, the Church Christ promised to “guide into all truth”, has in fact formulated and taught creeds.

The first bishops, the apostles, formulated the Church's first, shortest, and most important creed, the Apostles' Creed. Whether the apostles literally wrote it, as tradition says, or whether it was written by their disciples to preserve the apostles' teaching, in either case it is the teaching of the apostles. When we recite this creed we speak in unison with them.

There is a strange notion abroad that creeds oppress, repress, or suppress people. That is like saying that light or food is repressive. The practical purpose of the creeds is truth, and truth is light and food for the soul.

Each of the Church's creeds was written in response to a heresy, to combat it not by force but by truth, as light combats darkness. Creeds are “truth in labeling”. Those who disbelieve in truth or scorn it, or who disbelieve in our ability to know it, see creeds as power plays.

The media's hysterical rhetoric about the pope's labeling Hans Kung's theology as non-Catholic theology is a good example of the world's utter confusion here. The media conjured up visions of the return of the Inquisition simply because the pope said, in effect, that Kung's teachings about Christ should not be confused with the Church's teachings about Christ. But this reaction should be expected if we remember the words of Christ himself (read Jn 3:17-21 prayerfully).

The most important creeds were those formulated by the Church's ecumenical (universal) councils in response to the most important heresies, the heresies about Christ; and of these the two most important were Chalcedon and Nicaea. (The Nicene Creed is the one we recite each Sunday at Mass.) The Church's most recent council, Vatican II, formulated no new creeds and no new doctrines but applied the old ones to new needs and situations.

The pope called an extraordinary synod of bishops in 1985 in part to clarify Catholic confusion concerning Vatican II. Anyone who would take the trouble to read the actual documents (which are much, much longer than creeds) would see how traditional they are. The “spirit of Vatican II” conjured by the media and some theologians is a phantom, a ghostlike half-person, with the fatal split between head and heart, creed and deed, theology and social action, love of God and love of man, eternal principles and updated applications.

But the pope is a bridge builder, a pontifex; he will patch what the world has torn. And the blueprint he will follow in doing this will be the historic, never-abandoned creeds of the Church of Christ.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT

Kreeft, Peter. “What's the Point of Creeds?” Chapter 17 in Fundamentals of the Faith. (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1988), 107-111.

Reprinted by permission of Ignatius Press. All rights reserved. Fundamentals of the Faith - ISBN 0-89870-202-X.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; creeds
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To: Petronski
Did someone say Creed?


81 posted on 05/03/2009 8:44:29 AM PDT by Sawdring
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To: Salvation

M. Sayers wrote a book “The Mind of God” that explained the Holy Trinity beautifully. She refered to a book and its creation. First you have the Idea (the ‘father’, the Logos, the concept), then you have its Manifestation (the ‘son’, the hardcopy, the words on the page, the actual document) and then you have the Inspiration (the ‘holy spirit’, the Effect). Three in one. One is not separate from the other, yet they are distinct parts.


82 posted on 05/03/2009 1:03:14 PM PDT by Alkhin (I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell. ~ Harry S Truman)
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To: Alkhin

Sounds like a pretty good book.


83 posted on 05/03/2009 8:07:41 PM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Iscool
I didn't realize you guys don't believe in the trinity of man

Where do you find "trinity of man" in the bible?

Guess that's why you guys don't accept nor believe in the spiritual circumcisiion that takes place at the New Birth...

Who said so? Show me where the Church says there is no circumcision in the heart...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ

That's just Paul making up a new religion for the Greeks and Romans. Jesus Christ never said anything like that in the Gospels.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Oooh, the author of the Hebrews says so? Why do you believe him, and oridnary man? You don't even know who he is!

This is a partial description of the spiritul circumcision...It separates the physical human body from the spiritual...Prior to that circumcision, they are connected...

Is that a fact?

Mat 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Did Jesus really believe this was possible or did his human nature eclipse his divine nature? There is something seriously wrong with him asking his Father to take this cup away. What happened to perfect obedience, even for a fleeting moment?

So what are you saying??? Different 'natures' that disagree with each other??? I don't care what name you put on it but the scriptures show that there are three and those three are one...

Where does the scripture say that the Spirit is one with the Father and the Son? And doesn't the Son say that the Father is greater than the Son?

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

That verse proves absolutely nothing. It simply says that whatever I receive I shall have. Nothing very profound about that is there?

The 'nature' of God as God gives to the nature of Jesus as God???

In a sense that is orthodox, as regards the monarchia of the Father. Christian core doctrine is based upon the belief that God the Father is the source of everything and all, and is the only one without a cause; the Son is eternally begotten by, and the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father. So, yes, in extremis, the Father gives his nature to his Son and to the Spirit. They are one in essence only, which they share from the Father, but not in cause.

And you claim I say they are not related???

In post #68 you write "You have the outer shell, the inner tube, and the air that inflates the tire...That's how I view God...One football, three parts, but yet one..." to "explain the Trinity. Last time I checked, the outer shell, the inner tube and the air are all different substance (essence, nature). How does that make them "related" except in function or purpose. That kind of belief smacks of Mormonism.

As far as I know it [heretic] means schismatic...Which is anathema to your religion...But then schismatic may be another Greek word, or Latin, or Ukranian, in which case I'd have to do more research

Schismatic is a Greek word (surprise, surprise!) and is not the same as heretic. Heretic is someone who is outside of the norms of the faith; a schismatic is someone who is still within the faith but in some eecclesiastical disagreement. For example, those bishops who rejected the Vatican II became schismatics because they still believe in the same thing the rest of the Church believes; they simply disagree with Rome's version of the liturgy. Those bishops who professed that Jesus was a "lesser" God (Arians) are heretics because this is outside of the core Christian belief.

The word heretic itself simply means someone who is "outside" for the lack of a better definition. The word anathema also doesn't mean what the western cultures made it to mean (damnation). Please study what those words mean in Greek because they were used by the Church in Greek and in the context of the Greek.

 It clear that you nor I have seen the end of the creation of man

I thought the bible is explicit that God finished all his work in seven "days." (and here I go believing that God is outside of time and that he created everything and all before the foundation of the world, LOL!), and you are telling me that he still has some work left to do creating...how perfect is that?

84 posted on 05/03/2009 9:53:41 PM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: Salvation; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

85 posted on 05/03/2009 9:56:33 PM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: kosta50
Where do you find "trinity of man" in the bible?

It's all over the place...God formed the flesh of Adam out of the ground...He was given a soul and the 'spirit' of life was breathed into him...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

And here it shows that that as Christians our spirit is replaced by the Holy Spirit...

You may be at a disadvantage...If you initially had preconceptions of man not being a triune being, perahap when you came across the verses that show otherwise, you automatically or subconsiously blocked them out...They are there...

I'll lump the next few together...

Who said so? Show me where the Church says there is no circumcision in the heart...

Apparently you, Paul and I differ on what the spiritual circumcision is...We can see what Paul says, and obviously you disagree with him...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ

That's just Paul making up a new religion for the Greeks and Romans. Jesus Christ never said anything like that in the Gospels.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Oooh, the author of the Hebrews says so? Why do you believe him, and oridnary man? You don't even know who he is!

There are two ways I can go here...I can tell you what I see in the scriptures...Or I can acknowledge that fact that your bible consists of only the books where Matt., Mark, Luke, and John make the claim that Jesus spoke to them and they wrote down what he said...

How can I, a bible believer discuss the bible with someone who doesn't accept it as the word of God...Just the word of some men...

You're wasting my time...So no thanks...

86 posted on 05/04/2009 5:38:42 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Desdemona; Kolokotronis; kosta50
Don't forget the historical reasoning behind the adding of the filioque.

The Visigoths conquered Spain from the Roman Empire in the 5th and 6th centuries.

They were Arians (who denied the divinity of Christ and considered him purely a demiurge).

The majority of their subjects were Apostolic, however.

Hispania then had two parallel Churchs: one orthodox and one arian.

To explicitly differentiate the orthodox view from the arian, the Spanish priests added in the filioque to indicate that we orthodox believe that Christ is not a "lesser god" but an integral part of the Godhead.

Let's not forget the intentions were good, but the addition should only have been added in post council.
87 posted on 05/04/2009 7:16:27 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
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To: Iscool; Kolokotronis

Iscool — reciting the creed isn’t some magic bullet that makes you Christian, but, more importantly, it helps us understand the structure of Christianity, the basic building blocks. It tells you what IS Christianity and how we are not Mormons or Muslims or Sikhs.


88 posted on 05/04/2009 7:18:27 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
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To: Iscool; Kolokotronis
And I find it comical that your religion will call someone a heretic for disagreeing with their version of their guess...

Kolokotronis (who's orthodox) and me (catholic) in our religion (which we call Christianity) say that the Trinity is co-eternal. The only "heretics" against the Trinity said that Jesus was a created being, or a demiurge. The Arians said this, the Muslims say this and the Mormons say this. Do you think any of those heretical groups are Christian or similar to your beliefs?
89 posted on 05/04/2009 7:22:12 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
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To: kosta50; Iscool
So, the Trinitarian hypostases are different "forms" of one essence? Have you ever heard of Modalism?

Good point, Kosta. The perils of sola scriptura.
90 posted on 05/04/2009 7:24:46 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
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To: GonzoII
Paul points out that Christ is being ignored in their contentions in favor of different leaders including himself, He should be the center of their thoughts, these verses have nothing to do with the papacy.

Yes, it's funny how some outside The Church will take any opportunity to attack it and even funnier is how they take one section of a sentence out of context and interpret it in the way they want to. Sola scriptura...
91 posted on 05/04/2009 7:26:33 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
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To: Iscool; kosta50
I didn't realize you guys don't believe in the trinity of man...

the trinity of man? like you said, body, spirit and soul? How do you differentiate between the spirit and the soul?
92 posted on 05/04/2009 7:29:35 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
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To: Iscool; GonzoII
As I understand it, your pope teaches that what Jesus spoke to Peter supercedes anything any of the apostles wrote

You must be joking, right? is that what Protestants are taught? That the epistle of Peter somehow "supercedes" the gospel of John? at no point does Peter have his own teaching, he is solely the fisherman that labors on behalf of and teaching the teachings of the Christ, nothing more -- the other apostles wrote things that clashed with Peter? Really? Which gospels?

your statement is completely wrong and is an example of the silly propaganda spread against The Church. I don't blame you as this is what you were presumably taught or heard, but this is as silly as "The Da Vinci Code" or "Angels and Demons" -- pure fiction.
93 posted on 05/04/2009 7:34:37 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
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To: Cronos

and BAD fiction that too!


94 posted on 05/04/2009 7:39:30 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
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To: Iscool
Kosta: Where do you find "trinity of man" in the bible?

Iscool: It's all over the place...Gen 2:7...and man became a living soul.

The "living soul" simply means a living being, made up of two, not three components, the flesh and the spirit. There is no "trinity" here.

And here it shows that that as Christians our spirit is replaced by the Holy Spirit...

LOL! That would make us God!

How can I, a bible believer discuss the bible with someone who doesn't accept it as the word of God...Just the word of some men

First you say it is a word of God, yet why should I believe you? The Muslims say the Koran is the word of Allah and the Jews say the New Testament is not true. Where is the certificate of authenticity in any of these claims, including yours?

And what is a "discussion" with someone who agrees with you, with those who pat each other on the back? It's living in your own world where no one challenges your claims. I call that hiding.

95 posted on 05/04/2009 4:07:56 PM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: Cronos
the trinity of man? like you said, body, spirit and soul? How do you differentiate between the spirit and the soul?

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Apparently you guys don't just condemn using the scripture 'alone'...You condemn using the scripture 'at all', unless you can squeeze something out of it that may (or may not) remotely bolster your theory on what God taught us...

One interesting thing is that apparently your early church knew far better than you...The guy that wrote the original Catholic bible, Jerome, knew that we have a body and a soul and a spirit...And so did the Douay/Rheims people...Here's Jerome's writing...

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and effectual and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow: and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

96 posted on 05/04/2009 4:08:39 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Cronos; Iscool; Kolokotronis
The only "heretics" against the Trinity said that Jesus was a created being, or a demiurge. The Arians said this, the Muslims say this and the Mormons say this. Do you think any of those heretical groups are Christian or similar to your beliefs?

I can't wait for iscool to respond to this one...

97 posted on 05/04/2009 4:11:58 PM PDT by kosta50 (Don't look up, the truth is all around you)
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To: kosta50
LOL! That would make us God!

2Ti 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Your religion could not exist were it not for the scriptures, just as izlam could not exist without the Koran or the Mormans without Joe Smith's book...

But yet the scriptures are such a mystery to you guys...You're quick to point out that many veses don't mean what they say but then you're completely silent on what you think they do mean...

The verse says soul AND spirit as contrasted with joints AND marrow...Must be joints and marrow are the same thing as well in your world, eh???

98 posted on 05/04/2009 4:31:47 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Kolokotronis
God is not a “Person” or a “Persona”. God is ineffable, the “Being which creates beingness” We believe in God but God does not “exist” in any sense we comprehend. Any other concept leads to anthropomorphism, as for example this:

Strange that He revealed Himself in such 'anthropomorphic' terms. “God does not send you to hell for flunking his theology exam but for willingly divorcing from him.” Nonsense. God doesn’t send anyone to hell. God’s mercy and love fall on the good and the evil alike, like rain on the earth. People do end up in Hell, though.

99 posted on 05/04/2009 4:38:24 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Conservatism is primarily a Christian movement.)
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To: kosta50
The only "heretics" against the Trinity said that Jesus was a created being, or a demiurge. The Arians said this, the Muslims say this and the Mormons say this. Do you think any of those heretical groups are Christian or similar to your beliefs?

I can't wait for iscool to respond to this one...

What??? If you knew your bibles, you'd know that I always quote from the only bible that has the correct verse in it...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

100 posted on 05/04/2009 4:39:40 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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