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Did God Speak at Mt. Sinai?
'Aish HaTorah ^ | Not dated | Rabbi Nechemia Coopersmith and Rabbi Moshe Zeldman

Posted on 05/26/2009 9:27:20 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator

What support is there for the claim that God spoke to all the Jewish people at the foot of Mount Sinai?

Who did God give the Torah to at Mount Sinai? Most people reply, "God gave the Torah to Moses."

And what were the Jewish people doing while Moses was receiving the Torah? "Worshipping the Golden Calf."

Correct answers -- but NOT according to the Bible.

The above answers come from Cecil B. DeMille's classic film, "The Ten Commandments." Amazing the impact one movie can have on the Jewish education of generations of Jews. It's a great film, but DeMille should have read the original.

The version found in the Torah is quite different. The Torah's claim is that the entire people heard God speak at Mount Sinai, experiencing national revelation. God did not just appear to Moses in a private rendezvous; He appeared to everyone, some 3 million people. This claim is mentioned many times in the Torah.

[Moses told the Israelites]: 'Only beware for yourself and greatly beware for your soul, lest you forget the things that your eyes have beheld. Do not remove this memory from your heart all the days of your life. Teach your children and your children's children about the day that you stood before the Lord your God at Horev [Mount Sinai]...

God spoke to you from the midst of the fire, you were hearing the sound of words, but you were not seeing a form, only a sound. He told you of His covenant, instructing you to keep the Ten Commandments, and He inscribed them on two stone tablets.' (Deut.4:9-13)

'You have been shown in order to know that God, He is the Supreme Being. There is none besides Him. From heaven he let you hear His voice in order to teach you, and on earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words amid the fire.' (Deut. 4:32-36)

Moses called all of Israel and said to them: 'Hear, O Israel, the decrees and the ordinances that I speak in your ears today -- learn them, and be careful to perform them. The Lord your God sealed a covenant with us at Horev [Mount Sinai]. Not with our forefathers did God seal this covenant, but with us -- we who are here, all of us alive today. Face to face did God speak with you on the mountain from amid the fire.' (Deut. 5:1-4)

The Torah claims that the entire Jewish nation heard God speak at Sinai, an assertion that has been accepted as part of their nation's history for over 3,000 years.

DeMille's mistake is such a big deal because the Jewish claim of national revelation, as opposed to individual revelation, is the central defining event that makes Judaism different than every other religion in the world.

How so?

HISTORY AND LEGENDS

Two types of stories are part of any national heritage.

The first kind is legends. Included in this category is George Washington's admission to chopping down the cherry tree, along with his statement, "I cannot tell a lie." Johnny Appleseed planting apple trees across America with his discarded apple cores is another legend.

Then there is history. For example, George Washington was the first president of the United States. William the Conqueror led the Battle of Hastings in 1066 in which Harold, King of England, was killed. The Jews of Spain were expelled from their country in 1492, the year Christopher Columbus set sail.

What is the difference between legend and history?

A legend is an unverified story. By their very nature legends are unverifiable because they have very few eyewitnesses. Perhaps little George did chop down the cherry tree. We can't know if it happened. This does not mean that the legend is necessarily false, only that it is unverifiable. No one thinks legends are facts, therefore they are not accepted as reliable history.

History, however, is comprised of events we know actually happened. It is reliable because we can determine if the claimed event is true or false through a number of ways. One key to verification is the assertion that large numbers of eyewitnesses observed the specific event.

Why is the number of claimed original witnesses a principal determining factor in making historical accounts reliable? This can be understood through looking at the nature of the following series of claims and weighing their levels of credibility. The nature of the claim itself can often determine its degree of believability.

THE BELIEVABILITY GAME

Gauge the level of credibility of the following scenarios.

Some claims are inherently unverifiable. For example, would you believe me if I told you the following:

Scenario #1:

"Last week after dinner, I went for a walk through the forest near my house. Suddenly everything was awash in a tremendous light and God appeared to me, designating me as His prophet. He told me to announce this revelation to you at this time."

Believable?

In theory this could have happened. It doesn't seem likely, but you don't know I'm lying. Would you choose to believe me?

Without any substantiating evidence, why choose to believe me? A foolish move, indeed.

Scenario #2:

Would you believe me if I told you the following:

"Last night while I was eating dinner with my family, the room started to suddenly shake and God's booming voice was heard by all of us. He designated me as His prophet and commanded me to announce this revelation."

Believable?

This could have happened too. If I were to bring in my family to confirm the story it would be more believable than the first story. You certainly don't know if I'm lying.

Would you believe me? Would you fork over $10,000 dollars if I told you God commanded you to do so?

No way. There is still not enough evidence to trust my claim -- because it is very possible that my family is lying.

Scenario #3:

There is another type of claim that you can know is false. For example, would you believe me if I told you this:

"Do you remember what happened 10 minutes ago just as you began reading this article? Remember how the room started shaking, then the ceiling opened up to the skies, and you and I together heard God's booming voice come down and say 'Thou shalt hearken to the voice of Nechemia Coopersmith for he is my prophet!' And then the room went back to normal and you continued reading. You remember that, don't you?"

Is this believable?

This kind of claim is completely different. The two previous scenarios at least had the possibility of being true. You chose not to accept them because they were unverifiable. However this third scenario is impossible to believe. I'm claiming something happened to you that you know did not happen. Since you didn't experience it, you know I'm lying. I cannot convince you of something that you yourself know didn't happen.

This first type of claim -- that something happened to someone else -- is unverifiable, because you do not know for certain that the claim is a lie. Therefore it is possible for a person to decide to accept the claim as true if he really wanted to and take that leap of faith.

However, the other type of claim -- that something happened to you -- you know if it is inherently false. People do not accept patently false assertions, especially those that carry significant consequences.

SINAI: AN IMPOSSIBLE HOAX

So far we have seen two types of claims -- one is unverifiable and the other is inherently false.

Could the revelation at Sinai have been a brilliant hoax, duping millions of people into believing that God spoke to them?

Let's imagine the scene. Moses comes down the mountain and claims, "We all today heard God speak, all of you heard the God's voice from the fire..."

Assuming Moses is making it up, how would the people respond to his story?

"Moses! What are you talking about?! Boy, you sure had us going there for awhile. We may have even believed you if you came down and claimed that God appeared to you personally. But now you blew it! Now we know you're lying because you're claiming an event happened to us that we know didn't happen! We did not hear God speak to us from any fire!"

If the revelation at Sinai did not occur, then Moses is claiming an event everyone immediately knows is an outright lie, since they know that they never heard God speak. It is preposterous to think Moses can get away with a claim that everyone knows is lie.

REVELATION CLAIMED LATER IN HISTORY

Perhaps a hoax such as this could have been attempted at a later period in history. Perhaps the claim of national revelation did not originate at Sinai, but began, for example, 1,000 years after the event was said to have occurred. Perhaps the leader Ezra, for example, appears on the scene, introducing a book purported to be written by God and given to a people who stood at Sinai a long time ago.

Could someone get away with this kind of hoax? For example, would you believe the following:

"I want to let you in on a very little-known, but true fact. In 1794 over 200 years ago, from May until August, the entire continent of North America mysteriously sank under the sea. For those four months, the whole continent was submerged and somehow all animal, plant and human life managed to adapt to these bizarre conditions. Then, on August 31, the entire continent suddenly floated up to the surface and life resumed to normal."

Is there a possibility that I'm telling the truth? Do you know for a fact that it is a lie? After all, it happened so long ago, how do you know it didn't happen? Maybe you learned about in school and just forgot about it.

You know North America did not sink hundreds of years ago for one simple reason: If it did, you would have heard about it. An event so unique and amazing, witnessed by multitudes of people would have been known, discussed, and passed down, becoming a part of history. The fact that no one has heard of it up until now means you know the story is not true, making it impossible to accept.

An event of great significance with a large number of eyewitnesses cannot be perpetuated as a hoax. If it did not happen, everyone would realize it is false since no one ever heard about it before. Thus, if such an event was indeed accepted as part of history, the only way to understand its acceptance is that the event actually happened.

INTRODUCED LATER?

Let's assume for the moment that the revelation at Mount Sinai is really a hoax; God did not write the Torah. How did the revelation at Sinai become accepted for thousands of years as part of our nation's history?

Imagine someone trying to pull off such a hoax. An Ezra figure shows up one day holding a scroll.

"Hey Ezra - what are you holding there?"
"This is the Torah."
"The Torah? What's that?"
"It's an amazing book filled with laws, history and stories. Here, take a look at it."
Very nice, Ezra. Where did you get this?"
"Open up the book and see what it says. This book was given thousands of years ago to your ancestors. Three million of them stood at Mount Sinai and heard God speak! God appeared to everyone, giving His law and instruction."

How would you respond to such a claim?

The people give Ezra a quizzical look and say,

"Wait a second, Ezra. Something is a little fishy here. Why haven't we ever heard of this before? You're describing one of the most momentous events that could ever happen, claiming that it happened to our ancestors - and we never heard about it?"

"Sure. It was along time ago. Of course you never heard about it."

"C'mon Ezra! It's impossible that our grandparents or great-grandparents would not have passed down the most significant event in our nation's history to some of the people! How could it be that no one has heard about this up until now?! You're claiming all my ancestors, the entire nation, 3 million people heard God speak and received a set of instructions called the Torah, and none of us have heard about it?! You must be lying."

If one cannot pull off a hoax with regard to a continent sinking, so too one cannot pull off a hoax to convince an entire people that their ancestors experienced the most unique event in all of human history.

Everyone would know it's a lie.

For thousands of years, Sinai was accepted as central to Jewish history. How else can this be explained?

Given that people will not fall for a hoax they know is a lie, how could national revelation have been not only accepted -- but faithfully followed with great sacrifice by the vast majority of Jews?

The only way a people would accept such a claim is if it really happened. If Sinai did not happen, everyone would know it's a lie and it would never have been accepted. The only way one can ever claim a nation experienced revelation and have it accepted is if it is true.

SINAI: THE ONLY CLAIM OF NATIONAL REVELATION

Throughout history, tens of thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that God spoke to him or her. All religions that base themselves on some type of revelation share essentially the same beginning: a holy person goes into solitude, comes back to his people, and announces that he has experienced a personal revelation where God appointed him to be His prophet.

Would you believe someone who claims to have received a personal communication from God appointing him or her as God's new prophet?

Maybe He did. Then again, maybe He didn't. One can never know. The claim is inherently unverifiable.

Personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion since one can never know if it is indeed true. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, there is still no verification that he is a genuine prophet. Miracles do not prove anything. All they show -- assuming they are genuine -- is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.

Maimonides writes:

Israel did not believe in Moses, our teacher, on account of the miracles he performed. For when one's faith is based on miracles, doubt remains in the mind that these miracles may have been done through the occult and witchcraft...

What then were the grounds of believing him? The revelation on Sinai which we saw with our own eyes, and heard with our own ears, not having to depend on the testimony of others... (Mishna Torah - Foundations of Torah 8:1)

A BOLD PREDICTION

There are 15,000 known religions in all of recorded history. Given this inherent weakness, why do all of them base their claim on personal revelation? If someone wanted their religion to be accepted, why wouldn't they present the strongest, most believable claim possible -- i.e. national revelation! It's far more credible. No one has to take a leap of faith and blindly trust just one person's word. It is qualitatively better to claim that God came to everyone, telling the entire group that so-and-so is His prophet.

Why would God establish His entire relationship with a nation through one man, without any possibility of verification, and still expect this nation to obediently follow an entire system of instructions, based only on blind faith?

Yet, Judaism is the only religion in the annals of history that makes the best of all claims -- that everyone heard God speak. No other religion claims the experience of national revelation. Why?

Furthermore, the author of the Torah predicts that there will never be another claim of national revelation throughout history!

'You might inquire about times long past, from the day that God created man on earth, and from one end of heaven to the other: Has there ever been anything like this great thing or has anything like it been heard? Has a people ever heard the voice of God speaking from the midst of the fires as you have heard and survived?' (Deut. 4:32-33)

Let's consider the option that God did not write the Torah, and its author successfully convinced a group of people to accept a false claim of national revelation. In this book, the author writes a prediction that over the course of history no one will ever make a similar claim. That means if such a claim is ever made at some future time, the prediction will end up being false and his religion is finished.

How could the author include in the book he is passing off as a hoax the prediction that no other person will ever attempt to perpetuate the same hoax when he just made that exact claim? If he could do it, he can be certain that others will too, especially since it is the best possible claim to make. If you are making up a religion, you do not write something you know you cannot predict and whose outcome you would think is guaranteed to be exactly the opposite.

However, aside from the Jewish claim of Mount Sinai, it is a fact that no other nation has ever claimed such a similar national revelation.

Let's summarize two primary questions:

1. Out of 15,000 known religions in recorded history, why is Judaism the only one that claims national revelation, the best of all claims? Why do all other religions base themselves on the inherently weak assertion of personal revelation?

2. If Judaism's claim is indeed an example of a successful hoax that falsely asserts national revelation, the author just got away with passing off the best possible claim, and others will certainly follow suit. Why then would he predict that no one else will ever make a similar claim, a prediction he knows he cannot foresee, and whose outcome is likely to be the exact opposite?

There is one simple answer to both questions. A national revelation -- as opposed to personal revelation -- is the one lie you cannot get away with. It is one event you cannot fabricate. The only way to make this claim is if it actually happened.

If the claim is true, the people will believe it because they are agreeing to something they already know. Either they personally witnessed it, or their ancestors collectively passed down the account as part of their nation's accepted history.

If the claim is false, it's like trying to convince you that God spoke to you or your parents and somehow you never heard of it. No one would ever accept such a claim.

Therefore no other religion has ever made the best of all claims, because it is the one claim that can only be made if it is true. One cannot pass national revelation off as a hoax.

When inventing a religion, the originator must resort to personal revelation, despite its inherent weakness, since it is a claim that is unverifiable. The originator can hope to find adherents willing to take a leap of faith and accept his or her religion. After all, no one can ever know it is a lie. [Of course, no one can know if it's true either.] This simply cannot work with national revelation since it's the one claim that everyone will know is a lie.

Only Judaism can claim national revelation since the Jewish people is the only nation in the history of mankind who ever experienced it.

Furthermore, it is interesting to note that the other major religions of the world both accept the Jewish revelation at Sinai, including the Five Books of Moses in their Bible, and hold the Sinai revelation as a key component of their religion.

When starting their own religions, why did they build upon the Jewish claim? Why didn't they just deny the revelation ever happened?

The answer is that they knew that if national revelation can never be fabricated; so too, its validity can therefore never be denied.

Now it is understandable how the Author of the Torah can confidently predict that there will never be another claim of national revelation in history.

Because only God knew it would happen only once, as it did -- at Sinai over 3,000 years ago.

Based on a segment of Aish HaTorah's Discovery seminar.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events; Judaism; Theology
KEYWORDS: exodus; judaism; moses; revelation; shavuot; sinai; tencommandments; torah
This weekend is Shavu`ot, so it's time for my annual posting of this article.
1 posted on 05/26/2009 9:27:20 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
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To: familyop; onedoug; Quix; magritte; Kimmers; oswegodeee; navygal; Netizen; hlmencken3; ...
Shavu`ot ping!

The only absolutely verifiable and objective Divine Revelation in history, on which all other claimants stand or fall!

2 posted on 05/26/2009 9:31:58 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Bachodesh hashelishi letze't Benei-Yisra'el me'Eretz Mitzrayim; bayom hazeh ba'u Midbar Sinai.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I'm Christian and I had always heard that G-d spoke to all the people who were so afraid because it was so loud, they begged Moses to make it stop and to go up on the mountain and speak to G-d for them all. He did so — at their request — and when he returned he had to wear a veil over his face he was so radiant.

Guess, I was ahead of the curve or that 95 percent retention rate of all I read helped out a lot. I thought everybody knew that.

3 posted on 05/26/2009 9:35:38 AM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: Zionist Conspirator
The above answers come from Cecil B. DeMille's classic film, "The Ten Commandments." Amazing the impact one movie can have on the Jewish education of generations of Jews. It's a great film, but DeMille should have read the original.

Great thread, Z-C

4 posted on 05/26/2009 9:35:39 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Presbyterians often forget that John Knox had been a Sunday bowler.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Oh, and while Moses was gone, because they were so unnerved from their last encounter with G-d, they thought he'd been killed during his visit on the mountain top, so they thought they were alone and abandoned and THAT’s when they returned to the gods of Egypt and forced poor Aaron to make the golden calf.
5 posted on 05/26/2009 9:38:32 AM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: RhoTheta

Ping.


6 posted on 05/26/2009 9:44:08 AM PDT by Egon (The difference between Theory and Practice: In Theory, there is no difference.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

That the Revelation was national in character is correct.

But Ex. 20:18-22 is antecedent to the decalogue given in the first of the chapter.

The people were terrified of Elohim and requested that Moses speak to them in God’s stead. Moses went up into the thick darkness and spoke with God and received the message for Israel. He alone received the 10 Commanments and faithfully delivered them to the people.

They didn’t start the idolatry until the very end of the forty day period when they despaired of Moses returning and fell back into former sin patterns.

DeMille made a lot of Scriptural errors but this is not one of them.


7 posted on 05/26/2009 9:52:34 AM PDT by TFMcGuire (Life is tough. It is even tougher if you are stupid--John Wayne)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
The only absolutely verifiable and objective Divine Revelation in history, on which all other claimants stand or fall!

I don't really follow the logic here. How is this absolutely verifiable? Generations after the fact, a book says an event happens. This event reinforces the nationalistic identify of being God's chosen people. How do we know what people of the time were thinking? What parent would deny or contradict the priests or holy writings? A single generation after the Torah was first used, the story would be self reinforcing. Any doubt would be silent or silenced. Fast forward to today, thousands of years after the fact, why does this account for absolute verifiability?

8 posted on 05/26/2009 10:08:47 AM PDT by Tao Yin
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Thanks. I think this is going to be one of our discussion topics on Thrsday night.

ML/NJ

9 posted on 05/26/2009 10:08:59 AM PDT by ml/nj
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To: Zionist Conspirator

BM to read all of it later. Looks good!


10 posted on 05/26/2009 10:13:14 AM PDT by jeffc (They're coming to take me away! Ha-ha, hey-hey, ho-ho!)
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To: Tao Yin
I don't really follow the logic here. How is this absolutely verifiable? Generations after the fact, a book says an event happens. This event reinforces the nationalistic identify of being God's chosen people. How do we know what people of the time were thinking? What parent would deny or contradict the priests or holy writings? A single generation after the Torah was first used, the story would be self reinforcing. Any doubt would be silent or silenced. Fast forward to today, thousands of years after the fact, why does this account for absolute verifiability?

Did you read the article?

The point is that the story of the Revelation could not have been introduced later without being exposed as a fraud.

11 posted on 05/26/2009 10:24:13 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Bachodesh hashelishi letze't Benei-Yisra'el me'Eretz Mitzrayim; bayom hazeh ba'u Midbar Sinai.)
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To: Constitutions Grandchild
Oh, and while Moses was gone, because they were so unnerved from their last encounter with G-d, they thought he'd been killed during his visit on the mountain top, so they thought they were alone and abandoned and THAT’s when they returned to the gods of Egypt and forced poor Aaron to make the golden calf.

Kinda explains Abe Foxman, doesn't it?

12 posted on 05/26/2009 10:25:25 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Bachodesh hashelishi letze't Benei-Yisra'el me'Eretz Mitzrayim; bayom hazeh ba'u Midbar Sinai.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
So, who's Abe Foxman? Sorry, I don't get out much. ;-)
13 posted on 05/26/2009 10:40:03 AM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume

If you'd like to be on or off, please FR mail me.

..................

14 posted on 05/26/2009 10:59:58 AM PDT by SJackson (in the fight against terrorism, no middle ground, half-measures leave you half-exposed, D. Cheney)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I did read the article and I did do an internet search. Interesting reading but pseudo logic.

Moses lived about 1500 BC. As far back as 800 BC, neither Israel nor Judah was truly monotheistic. About 600 BC, monotheism ascended and subsidiary cult centers were wiped out. Soon after, the book of Deuteronomy was rediscovered in the Temple of Judah.

I'm not sure how this follows. So let's sum up the argument... The ruler Josiah supported monotheism, suppressed opposition, and the religious center in Jerusalem put it's weight behind a holy book. In the holy book was a story almost 1000 years old that talks about a divine revelation to all the Jewish people. This story didn't destroy the rulers and powerful people so therefor the story must be true.

That's a weak and pitiful argument and does not constitute absolute verifiability.

15 posted on 05/26/2009 11:09:21 AM PDT by Tao Yin
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To: Constitutions Grandchild
Even then, they weren't returning to the gods of Egypt, just to the traditions of Egypt. After making the calf, Aaron declared the next day to be "a Feast to the LORD." It was trying to make an idol of the Holy One not abandoning the Holy One which brought judgment.

Shalom.

16 posted on 05/26/2009 11:26:14 AM PDT by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Thanks for the ping, excellent article.


17 posted on 05/26/2009 1:20:48 PM PDT by JesusBmyGod (Baruch HaBa B'Shem Adonai)
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To: Tao Yin

It’s interesting that The Jews are still here, as a viable people long after so many of their early contemporaries are dust...and that their homeland is Israel, which has never been the sovereign of anyone else.

Torah also ties to modern science remarkably well.

“Gi’me that ol’ time religion!”


18 posted on 05/26/2009 1:31:01 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: Zionist Conspirator
The only absolutely verifiable and objective Divine Revelation in history, on which all other claimants stand or fall!

That fact simply cannot be repeated too many times.

G-d not only gave us the capacity to believe, but the capacity to reason. BOTH are necessary. The Revelation at Mt. Sinai is something that illustrates this in the most profound way possible. You can believe it, but belief, faith, is a fragile thing. There's always room for doubt (as there MUST be - because without doubt there is no free will, and existence is pointless from a theological point of view). No, here there is a great degree of rationality involved - the event HAD to have occurred, there is NO OTHER RATIONAL EXPLANATION (because, let me tell you, choosing to live according to the words of the Torah is no easy thing, and NO ONE would do so merely to perpetuate a hoax that would only have benefits hundreds or thousands of years later).

19 posted on 05/26/2009 1:31:33 PM PDT by Ancesthntr (Tyrant: "Spartans, lay down your weapons." Free man: "Persian, come and get them!")
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To: Tao Yin; Zionist Conspirator
I don't really follow the logic here. How is this absolutely verifiable? Generations after the fact, a book says an event happens. This event reinforces the nationalistic identify of being God's chosen people. How do we know what people of the time were thinking? What parent would deny or contradict the priests or holy writings? A single generation after the Torah was first used, the story would be self reinforcing. Any doubt would be silent or silenced. Fast forward to today, thousands of years after the fact, why does this account for absolute verifiability?

As ZC mentioned, the article shows that introducing it later would be an easily-detected fraud. Further, what you don't realize is that the more time which passed, the less unified the Jewish People were (generally speaking, there are some exceptions). Introducing such a claim at or near a time of partisan bickering would have resulted in someone getting stoned as a charlatan, not in the adoption of a new national myth.

Would you believe a story that only came to light now that an angel appeared at the Continental Congress, and again at the Constitutional Convention, in order to inspire the founders to revolt and structure our government a certain way? No, probably not. Why? Because you have never heard of such a thing, and it is soooo tall a tale that you WOULD HAVE heard about it before if it did really happen.

20 posted on 05/26/2009 1:38:15 PM PDT by Ancesthntr (Tyrant: "Spartans, lay down your weapons." Free man: "Persian, come and get them!")
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To: Tao Yin; Zionist Conspirator
In the holy book was a story almost 1000 years old that talks about a divine revelation to all the Jewish people.

That's a weak and pitiful argument and does not constitute absolute verifiability.

That same book (Deuteronomy) also (as pointed out in the article) makes the claim that no nation (i.e. no religion) would EVER make a similar claim. Some 2,500 years after Ezra and 15,000 religions later, still no takers.

Further, G-d promised the Jews that they would be an eternal people. Despite widespread hatred, the loss of their homeland, the ease of conversion to other religions and multiple attempts to literally exterminate the Jews, they are still here (and, with some 400 nukes and the ability to deliver them over a wide range, they seem not to be going anywhere).

That's about as close to absolute verifiability as you'll ever get. Actually, the holes in the facts are far more in the nature of mistakes by secular archeologists. There are, for instance, serious questions about the exact order of Egyptian Pharoahs - and lots of dates for events outside of Egypt are dependent on who was Pharoah when.

21 posted on 05/26/2009 1:46:30 PM PDT by Ancesthntr (Tyrant: "Spartans, lay down your weapons." Free man: "Persian, come and get them!")
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To: Nachum

Ping. Didn’t mean to forget you; it was totally an accident!


22 posted on 05/26/2009 5:49:00 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Bachodesh hashelishi letze't Benei-Yisra'el me'Eretz Mitzrayim; bayom hazeh ba'u Midbar Sinai.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Ping. Didn’t mean to forget you; it was totally an accident!

Alls well that ends well.

You know, God offered the ten commandments to all the peoples of the world. Each nation found fault with some part of them.

Finally he came to the Children of Israel and offered it to them. So they asked,

"How much does it cost?"

So God answered that it was free. They then said...

"We'll take two"

23 posted on 05/26/2009 5:59:41 PM PDT by Nachum (The complete Obama list at www.nachumlist.com)
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To: Nachum

Lol!


24 posted on 05/26/2009 6:09:39 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Bachodesh hashelishi letze't Benei-Yisra'el me'Eretz Mitzrayim; bayom hazeh ba'u Midbar Sinai.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
"Furthermore, it is interesting to note that the other major religions of the world both accept the Jewish revelation at Sinai,...Why didn't they just deny the revelation ever happened?"

Each year now, more of them are denying it.


25 posted on 05/26/2009 6:15:57 PM PDT by familyop (combat engineer (combat), National Guard, '89-'96, Duncan Hunter or no-vote, http://falconparty.com/)
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To: familyop
"Furthermore, it is interesting to note that the other major religions of the world both accept the Jewish revelation at Sinai,...Why didn't they just deny the revelation ever happened?"

Each year now, more of them are denying it.

You got that right. And the ironic thing is, the more liberal, irreligious, Torah-denying elements of these religions see themselves as being somehow more "philo-Semitic" than the orthodox members of those religions (not that the orthodox were any great shakes).

26 posted on 05/26/2009 6:33:32 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Bachodesh hashelishi letze't Benei-Yisra'el me'Eretz Mitzrayim; bayom hazeh ba'u Midbar Sinai.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
This weekend is Shavu`ot, so it's time for my annual posting of this article.

Thanks for the article. It's certainly true that God spoke the ten commandments from Mount Sinai.

God spoke to you from the midst of the fire, you were hearing the sound of words, but you were not seeing a form, only a sound. He told you of His covenant, instructing you to keep the Ten Commandments, and He inscribed them on two stone tablets.' (Deut.4:9-13)

But those were the ONLY words he uttered to all of Israel. He did not speak directly to the people after this, but spoke through prophets.

Exd 20:18 KJV - And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw [it], they removed, and stood afar off.
Exd 20:19 KJV - And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

Please note that I'm not diminishing those instructions given through the prophets. I'm merely pointing out that the giving of Godly revelation through prophets was norm.

All of the law except the ten commandments were given through prophets such as Moses, Ezekiel, Jesus and Paul.

I will also be observing the Shavu'ot, or Pentecost, this weekend and hope that you have a blessed observance.

27 posted on 05/27/2009 6:43:59 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Thanks for the article. It's certainly true that God spoke the ten commandments from Mount Sinai.

Unfortunately, you only believe this because it is written in the Protestant bible, to which you take an a priori position of belief. The article was aimed at people who do not have this assumption and shows from simple logic that G-d spoke at Sinai.

That chr*stianity is unprovided for by the Torah means nothing to you, because you inherited a bible with a "new testament" tacked on to the end, which automatically makes it "the word of G-d." If the Apocrypha (which were originally in the KJV) had never been removed you would believe them as well.

Your logic is identical to that of the mormons. And I know . . . you claim mine is identical to that of the Catholics because you assume to accept any Tradition is to accept all tradition.

I'm sorry for a hostile response to a basically friendly post, but your illogical assumptions are absolutely maddening.

You are aware, aren't you, that when J*sus was preaching the "new testament" was not in the Bible and that he couldn't quote Ephesians to prove what he was teaching?

28 posted on 05/27/2009 7:32:30 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Bachodesh hashelishi letze't Benei-Yisra'el me'Eretz Mitzrayim; bayom hazeh ba'u Midbar Sinai.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Thanks for the article. It's certainly true that God spoke the ten commandments from Mount Sinai.
Unfortunately, you only believe this because it is written in the Protestant bible, to which you take an a priori position of belief. The article was aimed at people who do not have this assumption and shows from simple logic that G-d spoke at Sinai.

Show me from the hebrew scriptures where God spoke any of the law except the ten commandments directly to all the people. I showed you specifically where it said the people only wanted to hear what God said THROUGH Moses after God spoke the ten commandments.

Exd 20:18 KJV - And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw [it], they removed, and stood afar off.
Exodus 20:19 KJV - And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
Exodus 20:20 KJV - And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
Exodus 20:21 KJV - And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God [was].
Exodus 20:22 KJV - And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

And God was still speaking through Moses some 40 years later:

Deu 30:8 KJV - And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
Deu 30:9 KJV - And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
Deu 30:10 KJV - If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deu 30:11 KJV - For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off.

Please note again that I'm not invalidating what happened. I'm not saying that God didnt' speak to Moses and that Moses relayed the message faithfully. I'm just saying that the Hebrew scriptures SAY that God only spoke the ten commandments and that he spoke through prophets thereafter.

Your logic is identical to that of the mormons. And I know . . . you claim mine is identical to that of the Catholics because you assume to accept any Tradition is to accept all tradition.

I don't reject all tradition. I reject tradition that doesn't agree with scripture.

You are aware, aren't you, that when J*sus was preaching the "new testament" was not in the Bible and that he couldn't quote Ephesians to prove what he was teaching?

Well aware. Nearly all new testament figures quoted the "old" testament to support their positions. Those whom they spoke to also verified their claims through the hebrew scriptures.

29 posted on 05/27/2009 9:59:19 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Alouette; hlmencken3; Nachum; dervish; Jewbacca; Yehuda; rmlew; ChicagoHebrew; TorahTrueJew; ...
Shavu`ot begins tonight.

Chag sameach to all!

30 posted on 05/18/2010 9:06:50 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Vesamu 'et-shemi `al-Beney Yisra'el; va'Ani 'avarakhem.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Up all night.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gkwVf4cHqM

31 posted on 05/18/2010 9:11:22 AM PDT by Nachum (The complete Obama list at www.nachumlist.com)
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32 posted on 05/29/2010 7:43:43 AM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: Alouette; hlmencken3; rmlew; Nachum; dervish; Yehuda; Ancesthntr; TorahTrueJew; Yomin Postelnik; ...
Annual bump.

Chag Shavu`ot sameach!

33 posted on 05/25/2012 8:48:12 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Thanks for the ping.


34 posted on 05/25/2012 9:18:18 AM PDT by GOPJ ( "A Dog In Every Pot" - freeper ETL)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

GREAT POINTS.

THX THX.


35 posted on 05/26/2012 3:53:56 AM PDT by Quix (Time is short: INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: hlmencken3; rmlew; Nachum; dervish; Yehuda; Ancesthntr; TorahTrueJew; Yomin Postelnik; ...

Belated Shavu`ot ping.


36 posted on 05/14/2013 3:40:07 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: All
The first post was written a few years back. This year Shavu`ot begins tonight (5/14/'13).
37 posted on 05/14/2013 3:49:46 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: DouglasKC

http://www.torah.org/advanced/mikra/5757/sh/dt.57.2.05.html

... the original plan was for the people to hear more than just these ‘Aseret haDibrot; whether they should have heard the entire Torah or just the rest of Sefer haB’rit (through 23:19) is unclear. What is implicit in these verses is that it was the people’s fear that interrupted the revelation and “changed the rules” such that Mosheh would receive the rest of the revelation alone and transmit it to the people.

This would also explain an interesting switch in terminology in the Torah relating to the Tablets. Whereas they are called Luchot haB’rit - “the Tablets of the Covenant” in one section of Sefer D’varim (9:9-15), they have a different name in reference to their placement in the Mishkan:

You shall put into the ark the Edut (testimony) that I shall give you. (25:16).

These tablets are called Edut because they testify to the Revelation. In other words, these ‘Aseret haDibrot were not committed to graphic representation on the tablets because of their inherent importance, but rather as a testimony to the Revelation which every member of the B’nei Yisra’el had experienced...


38 posted on 05/14/2013 5:39:39 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: Nachum; Zionist Conspirator

‘Moses came down from the mountain with the news that, “I’ve gotten Him down to ten. Unfortunately, adultery is still one of them.”’

Had I told that before?

Thanks always for the ping, ZC.


39 posted on 05/14/2013 7:03:18 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: onedoug

‘Moses came down from the mountain with the news that, “I’ve gotten Him down to ten. Unfortunately, adultery is still one of them.”’

Always a catch.


40 posted on 05/14/2013 7:04:24 PM PDT by Nachum (The Obama "List" at www.nachumlist.com)
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To: hlmencken3; rmlew; Nachum; dervish; Yehuda; Ancesthntr; TorahTrueJew; Yomin Postelnik; ...
Annual bump for Shavu`ot (zeman mattan Toratenu).
41 posted on 06/02/2014 3:14:03 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
That's for the ping, ZC. I like how you return to the threads year after year, in the same spirit as the cyclical readings of the Torah.

Adding to the thread the classic movie scene of the giving of the Torah. :)

42 posted on 06/02/2014 3:37:05 PM PDT by Ezekiel (All who mourn the destruction of America merit the celebration of her rebirth.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

“This weekend is Shavu`ot,...”

This year it starts Tuesday evening 18 minutes before sunset and ends the next evening in Israel 45 minutes after sunset. Outside of Israel it lasts until 45 minutes after sundown on Thursday.


43 posted on 06/02/2014 8:01:54 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (Pubbies = national collectivists; Dems = international collectivists; We need a second party!)
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: Jack Hydrazine
“This weekend is Shavu`ot,...”

This year it starts Tuesday evening 18 minutes before sunset and ends the next evening in Israel 45 minutes after sunset. Outside of Israel it lasts until 45 minutes after sundown on Thursday.

I am aware of that. I believe if you look at that particular post you will see that it is from a previous year (I bump this article every year).

I'm not a Qara'ite.

45 posted on 06/03/2014 7:08:39 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Alrighty then!


46 posted on 06/03/2014 7:39:25 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (Pubbies = national collectivists; Dems = international collectivists; We need a second party!)
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