Mary: Holy Mother

Catholic Pages ^ | 6/18/09 | Scott Hahn

[Iscool]

He was and is obedience to the fourth commandment: He honors His Blessed Mother. In imitation of the Lord -- in being like-minded, in being one in spirit and purpose -- we also should honor His Mother.

That's really stretching it...Jesus said to honor YOUR mother and Father...Not His...

[Iscool]

Well all that sounds well and good but I will just keep being a Baptist and Worship Jesus and let Him alone be my Mediator.

I know what you are saying but it is not all good and well...

We are to reprove any who twist and pervert the words of God...

[WKB]

I said it SOUNDS good and well not that it IS.

[bdeaner]

.That's really stretching it...Jesus said to honor YOUR mother and Father...Not His...

To me the logic is very simple and elegant -- relatively much simpler than, say, the logic that gives us insight into the Trinity, which is likely to be a doctrine we agree upon (I hope!). The Lord, in Exodus, told us to honor our mother and father. And Christ told us to obey those commandments. In addition, St. Paul taught us to imitate Christ, to be "like-minded" and united with him in "spirit and purpose." The obvious implication is that, being like Christ, we honor His Mother as if she is our own Mother. Not worship, but honor. If there are people who worship the Blessed Mother as if she is a deity, they are in heresy and need to be corrected. If you don't believe in intercessory prayer, and asking Mary for intercession, you can still honor her as Christ's mother and remain completely consistent otherwise with Evangelical theology. You do it for example at Christmas when you put up a nativity set, which of course contains an icon of Mary. The icon is not about worshipping Mary; its's honoring her and her special role in giving birth to the savior. Most Protestants I know have a nativity set and strongly advocate putting one in the front yard to help remind people about the "reason for the season."

The major theological difference, it seems to me, is intercessory prayer. I won't get into that now, but I am sure we'll have an opportunity to discuss the topic again in the near future.

[bdeaner]

However, going extra-scriptural, I don't think a lot of Catholics understand your distinction between worship and honor, at least in Mary's case. I've lived in a Catholic Third World country, and I guarantee you that some of the Catholics there thought far more highly of Mary that of Jesus. I do understand that is not the official position of the Church.

I agree that many practicing Catholics worship Mary out of ignorance regarding the true teachings of the Church. This is going to be more likely in places like the Third World, where there are higher priorities than teaching the catechism. Worship of Mary, however, is heretical and does need to be corrected when it is seen. I should note, however, that Catholics are right to give Mary special honor, super-honor, in a similar way we might give honor to St. Paul, or Moses, or any other major figure in salvation history. The Bible says that she will be called blessed throughout all the ages, after all. Note: It is also okay to ask Mary for intercessory prayer -- to pray for us. We can do that as well with a deceased parent or to the Saints -- another point of disagreement among Catholics and Protestants that we can save for another discussion.

God bless.

[bdeaner]

Thanks but I have already read and taught the Book of the Revelation 3 times and have yet to see ANY Catholic teachings other than The Catholic Church may be the whore of Babylon.

I invite you to read Scott Hahn's book, The Lamb's Supper, which is his study of Revelations.

Hahn was a Presbyterian minister who was very anti-Catholic. Revelations was his main scholarly focus in graduate school. One day he went to observe a Catholic Mass, out of curiosity, because he was on the campus of a Catholic University. He was suddenly struck that everything he was seeing in the Mass followed exactly the pattern of the Book of Revelations. This insight eventually led him to convert to Catholicism. His book, The Lamb's Supper, is his scholarly work on the Mass as understood through the Book of Revelations.

I take it you are a premillennialist. I used to be one too. Like Hahn and folks such as David Currie, author of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, we each independently came to the realization that premillennialism is not scriptural and, in fact, a very idiosyncratic eschatology that is mostly confined to 20th century United States. It's a castle built on sand.

However, that is a different subject that would require a new thread. I might put that together, and will ping you when and if I have a chance to post it. If you are interested, I'd be glad to discuss it with you, as long as we can all play nice.

God bless.

[Petronski]

...The Catholic Church may be the whore of Babylon.

How precious.

[FourtySeven]

Are you logged on?

[bdeaner]

When you ask someone to perform miracles for you; to provide you with grace, it is worship...And that's what we see and hear from you guys...

You really misunderstand interccessory prayer and miracles associated with Mary and the Saints. ALL of it is due to the Lord. Everything. But the Lord uses agents to do His work. That's thoroughly and undeniably scriptural. God could have talked to Mary Himself and asked Her to bear His Son. But no, He sent the Archangel Gabriel to do the job. Mary and the Saints can also intercede for us, just as the angels can.

Asking for someone's prayers, whether they are alive or dead, is absolutely not the same as worshipping that person. Catholics ask Mary to "pray for us now and at the hour of death" (from the "Hail Mary"), just as you very likely ask your friends or pastor to pray for you. When you ask your friends or pastor to pray for you, you're not worshipping them, are you? Of course not. Neither are non-heretical Catholics worshipping Mary by asking for her intercessions, her prayers. Such claims are based on ignorance rather than a genuine understanding of Catholic theology.

In a little while, I am going to post a thread on intercessory prayer, and I will ping you for further conversation on this matter.

[Laur]

I am now. Sorry — computer was on, but I wasn’t even home

[Zero Sum]

Also, she was clearly not given any special status...

See Luke 1:26-37.

...as shown in Luke 11:27-28.

Now continue on to Luke 1:38. ;)

[narses]

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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

[narses]

“Mary is not Deity.”

No0 one said she is, her Son is though.

[bdeaner]

We are to reprove any who twist and pervert the words of God...

I agree. That's why I keep reproving you. ;)

God bless you, Brother.

[mgist]

We ask the dead to pray for us, and we pray for the dead, like Jesus did. (2 Macabees 12:45). If you ask your spiritually enlightened brother to pray for you, does that make him an intercessor at the level of Jesus? No, he is simply an intercessor who aspires to be like Jesus, and is doing what Jesus commanded.

God gave us a true role model in our Holy Mother and we love her for being God’s chosen. That doesn’t mean we love God any less. We know He comes first. Our love of anyone associated with Him, is a reflection of our love for Him. We don’t pray to Mary, we ask that she partake in our prayer. “Pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death.” AMEN

[Iscool]

We don’t pray to Mary, we ask that she partake in our prayer. “Pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death.” AMEN

How do expect people to take you and your religion seriously...Again, you guys say one thing and do another...

There are numerous Catholic sites on the internet that post your repetitious prayers TO MARY asking her to provide you with God's grace...And numerous other petitions...She is your co-mediator with Jesus...She is your co-redeemer...Some in your religion are trying to get her into the Trinity...A Quadrupity...Don't tell us one thing and do another...It just makes you and your religion look foolish...

[WKB]

To my dear Catholic Fellow Freppers and others; there are many things we agree on outside the church. We should focus on them and let God handle the details with the hope of saving our Country. I am a born again and always will be a Souithern, Southern Baptist. Nothing out side the spoken words of Jesus Christs is going to change my mind.
I hope all of you have a Blessed Father’s Day.
Kerry

[Iscool]

You have a wonderful day as well...

[bdeaner]

I agree, we have much more in common than we have differences! Let’s never forget that. Happy Fathers Day and God Bless.

[bdeaner]

I agree, we have much more in common than we have differences! Let’s never forget that. Happy Fathers Day and God Bless.