Mary and Intercessory Prayer

Ave Mary ^ | 6/21/09 | Shoy Thomas

[Natural Law]

"Great post!"

I put this together a few years ago for the benefit of my sister. After years away from the Church she became a Born Again fundamentalist whose "pastor" had given her a lot of anti-Catholic misinformation. She has never brought up the "worship of Mary" issue again.

[bdeaner]

Mary is not divine and should not be worshipped. But she is worthy of special honor. Scripture seems to be pretty clear on this point:

In the first book of the Old Testament we read the following: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel" (Gen. 3, 15). This verse, called the "protoevangelion," is the first promise of the redeeming Messiah. The woman in this verse is the Virgin Mary, Her offspring is, of course, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Despite the fact that there is distinct controversy among Biblical scholars as to whether the text should read "she", "he" or "it shall bruise"(or crush), the meaning is the same, as it is through Her Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, that the Virgin Mary crushes Satan.

Genesis 3, 15, together with the following passages, form the basis for venerating the Virgin Mary as Mother of God:

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, His name shall be called Emmanuel (i.e., God with us)" (Is. 7, 14 [Douai]);

"For a child has been born for us, a son given to us; authority rests upon his shoulders; and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Is. 9, 6);

"And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women" (St. Luke 1, 28 [Douai]); BR> "(St. Elizabeth to Our Lady) And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me?" (St. Luke 1, 43);

"...for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed" (St. Luke 1, 48);

"...Woman, behold your son...(Son) behold your mother" (St. John 19, 26-27);

"Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail" (Rev. 11, 19). The Ark of the Covenant was a symbolic type of the Virgin Mary. The original Ark was overladen with gold and contained within itself a pot of manna, Aaron's priestly rod, and the two tables of the Ten Commandments (Heb. 9, 4). It was overshadowed by a propitiatory, or mercy seat, upon which God Himself dwelt (the Shekinah) between two statues of Cherubim (Exod. 25). It was forbidden for anyone to touch the Ark on pain of death. The Virgin Mary, in comparison, was a greater Ark, being a human creature immaculately conceived who carried within Her womb not simply the symbols of Christ, but Christ Himself. God, likewise, overshadowed Her, when the Holy Spirit conceived Christ within Her. Being a perpetual virgin, no one could, or did, "touch" Her. Joshua prostrated himself and venerated the Ark for hours (Josh. 7, 6). As "Joshua" means "Jesus" we have a type of Jesus venerating a type of Mary. Applying this to the New Testament figures themselves, it symbolically represents Jesus Christ paying veneration to His Mother.2

"A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (Rev. 12, 1);

"And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne" (Rev. 12, 5);

"Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 12, 17).

The Church distinguishes clearly between dulia, or "the homage of veneration," and latria, which signifies "the worship of adoration." Veneration is paid to the Saints; a higher form of it, called hyperdulia, is given to the Virgin Mary; but adoration is given only to God. Any attempt to give adoration to a creature would certainly be idolatrous - but the Catholic Church has never given it. She adores God and God alone.

Veneration is a synonym for HONOR, as in the fourth commandment: Honor thy mother and father. St. Paul tells us that we should imitate Christ, and Christ followed the Fourth Commandment. In imitation of Christ, we honor His Mother as He Honored His Mother. We don't worship, we honor, in the same way that when you honor your parents, you are not worshipping them. And, if your parents are faithful, you can and should ask for their prayers. Same thing with Mary.

[Iscool]

For example, see Revelation 5:8, where John informs us that saints in heaven offer our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

It says 24 elders and 4 beasts...It says the prayers are oders...

But somehow you take that to mean Mary, and your hundreds and thousands of saints and claim it as some sort of proof text...Amazing...

[raygunfan]

ok, so 24 elders and beasts, etc...so where are those prayers from?

[Salvation]

I guess they have never REALLY read Luke and digested what is there!

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“I hate to say it, but Mary is not a “real person” anymore and cannot hear your words.”

Your point is theologically impossible. Mary is in heaven. Even Protestants assume she is. If she is, and you have no reason to think she isn’t if you’re a Christian, then she is still very much a person. Our personhood is determined by the presence of a soul. That’s why when someone dies, we know that what is left is ONLY a body - a dead, empty shell. Your personhood resides with your soul.

[big'ol_freeper]

From what I can tell most don’t actually read Holy Scripture. They memorize selective verses out of a redacted Bible.

[lucias_clay]

Contemplate the meaning of the word pray. Consider its use over time in English. You will find similar concepts in the older languages.

Consider the King James language ( or any secular / legal language of the time ). “I pray thee” is a common phrase wherein pray is understood by all to be “ask”. Said between humans one to another. Likewise said between humans and God.

Spend some more time studying prayer and you see Moses being asked to pray to God for the people, to interecede for them. This you see happening all along through scripture, someone praying for another either as an individual or praying for a group of people. Asking one to intercede for another in scripture. Indeed in all Christian circles its common to take prayer requests and to pray for each other. We ask each other to pray for us.

None of this means we cannot also pray directly to Jesus, the Trinity, etc. That is also true. And we should and do. But just like it is not a violation of the notion of “one intercessor” to ask our cousin to pray for us in our trials it likewise is still not a problem to ask a human (even if only spirit) to pray for us after they are beyond this life. Its only wrong if we think the cousin either is a God or the one beyond is a God.

Consider that in the language of Church change is not so fast as in the language of the people.

In the present life if I ask you to pray for me, or if I use older english and say “I pray thee Justmythoughts to pray the Father and the Son to send healing for my gout” no protestant would raise the slightest eyebrow. I know and everyone hearing me knows you are not God and I do not think of you as God.

At the same time there have been many people on earth who have decided they are God and started a following. If I were a dupe and were to pray to them, or to ask of them anything, as a God, I would commit heresy.

And to this point protestants would not have any dispute with this.

But after the soul has gone into heaven, and is before God, closer to God than we ourselves are, it continues to praise the Lord. It can likewise continue to pray, as prayer is to talk with God. Who thinks in heaven our soul does not talk with God ?

Just as on earth the distinction between if I think the departed is God or another human matters so to it matters on how I treat those who have gone ahead. And the nuance and ambiguity of language persists.

Just as I say to the Lord of the Manor “I pray thee dear sir grant leave of my son that he may tend our fields” I do not think he is “The Lord of Lords” and I do not pray to him as God, so it is when I ask a saint something.

To make it even more apparent. I speak to the Lord of the Manor and quote a passage of scripture. “My Lord, I pray thee to pray the Father for the deliverance of our land from the invader.”

I call him Lord but he is not the Lord, I pray him to pray the Father but I do not think he is god. In fact if I said “I ask thee to ask the Father” the meaning would be the same and the same questions would persist.

So you do pray to Mary. You pray to her to ask God on your behalf, as you ask your sister on earth to pray on your behalf when you face a trial.

Consider the Hail Mary all but the last two lines are scriptural. The last two lines say “pray for us sinners now,and at the hour of death.” Right there you see you are asking Mary to pray for you. Like on your deathbed you would ask a close friend to pray for you.

I hope this helps in some small way.

Have a great day.

[Just mythoughts]

In the first book of the Old Testament we read the following: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel" (Gen. 3, 15). This verse, called the "protoevangelion," is the first promise of the redeeming Messiah. The woman in this verse is the Virgin Mary, Her offspring is, of course, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Despite the fact that there is distinct controversy among Biblical scholars as to whether the text should read "she", "he" or "it shall bruise"(or crush), the meaning is the same, as it is through Her Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, that the Virgin Mary crushes Satan.

Huh, I do not know who told you the woman was Mary, as Mary was not the object of discussion, the woman was Eve. It is said of Eve that she is the mother of all living (Christ is the 'life' giver) as it was through her third son Seth where we can trace the genealogy even to Mary or Christ. And we are talking about offspring and it is a wild leap to inject Mary as the crusher of Satan. The Vulgate was corrupted into "she" which lies at the root of Mariolatry: the verb is singular masculine. This is the first great promise and prophecy.

[Marysecretary]

Prayers of the saints refer to US, those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. WE are the saints.

[Marysecretary]

I doubt He’ll ask that, dear Salvation. He is most likely to ask what you did with His Son, Jesus. THAT is the pivot point.

[Marysecretary]

Don’t bother praying that for me, Freeper. I appreciate your prayers always on my behalf, but I know what my scriptures tell me and I will depend on them and not what the traditions of men tell me. Love, M

[Marysecretary]

From the SAINTS here on earth, those who have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation. We are the saints, raygunfan.

[Marysecretary]

Not true. We are encouraged to read the Bible from cover to cover every year. We don’t just smorgasbord it.

[big'ol_freeper]

We are encouraged to read the Bible from cover to cover every year.

Encouraged maybe, but the evidence on here suggests most don't and those who do have no idea what they are reading.

[narses]

“I hate to say it, but Mary is not a “real person” anymore and cannot hear your words. “

Really? Why do you say that? Are you not Christian? Do you not believe in the Promise of Everlasting Life?

[narses]

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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

[big'ol_freeper]

I know what my scriptures tell me

How? How could it not be the sin of pride that an individual believes that from all eternity, and all interpretations, the one interpretation that individual believes is so perfectly enlightened above everyone else's.

I see danger and self-deceit in that prescription.

[Just mythoughts]

So you do pray to Mary. You pray to her to ask God on your behalf, as you ask your sister on earth to pray on your behalf when you face a trial.

Where is the evidence that when you pray to Mary she can hear you? She was flesh as are the rest of the children who chose to come through this flesh age. Mary was elected to be the flesh vessel to bring forth as was foretold, all of our Savior (who will believe) and she has no more clout in getting an intercessory prayer answered than the rest of the billions of souls that have passed through this flesh age. And it would do me no more good to pray to my own gone home flesh father to intercede than it would for me to pray to Mary to intercede.

I can ask directly to the Heavenly Father in the name of His only Begotten Son an intercessory prayer for anyone that I want. I can even ask my still in flesh body here with me on this earth family and friends to remember another in prayer.

Moses prayed to the only one who hears and answers prayers whether it is for oneself or an intercessory prayer. We are told that our Heavenly Father knows our heart and our thoughts, so why would it be necessary for anyone to go to another flesh that has returned back to the Maker to ask them to get our Heavenly Father's attention?

But I would like to thank you for your complete honest assessment of what does get taught and does take place. As I know what prayer means to me and you are among the very very very few that will openly admit that Mary is the one who gets asked to intercede through prayer. Meaning a prayer is directed to Mary for a Heavenly reaction as though she has the clout to get the answer we want.

[Marysecretary]

I can say the same about Catholics, BOF. Many seem to prefer the traditions of man.