Posted on 06/22/2009 5:50:20 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Thanks for the ping!
To be more clear: there are gravitational effects to be considered along with the effects of speed, but only when we’re talking about earth-bound speeds; both minor. With GPS satellite locations/speeds, corrections are in fact made for both effects...
But at the relativistic speeds we’re talking about for time travel into the future: of the 2 effects, gravitational effects shrink into insignificance. I think you’re trying to side-step that.
I’ll repeat myself, with regard to the bottom-line definition of time-travel: Your Great-great-great grandchildren in the year 2200 would not be trying to convince you, the near-light-speed traveler, that you were not a time-traveler.
You said — But at the relativistic speeds we’re talking about for time travel into the future: of the 2 effects, gravitational effects shrink into insignificance. I think you’re trying to side-step that.
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I don’t see that I sidestepped anything... :-)
Post #55...
BUT, it would appear that these processes change their “operation” when we do different things — like, for instance — traveling at a fast rate of speed, and/or from a gravitational effect, too — where an atomic clock at the higher elevation of Denver will have its atomic processes running at a different speed than an identical atomic clock at sea level.
You were the one that said — “Atomic clocks don’t vary by altitude.”
It appears that you were the one trying to side-step something in your Post #57... LOL...
I’ll give you that one, although the gravitational effect is extremely tiny—and doesn’t compare to that of relativistic, near-light-speed effects that I hoped we were talking about.
BTW, the link you provided says at one point, “Time dilation would make it possible for passengers in a fast-moving vehicle to travel further into the future while aging very little, in that their great speed slows down the rate of passage of on-board time. That is, the ship’s clock (and according to relativity, any human travelling with it) shows less elapsed time than the clocks of observers on Earth. For sufficiently high speeds the effect is dramatic. For example, one year of travel might correspond to ten years at home. Indeed, a constant 1 g acceleration would permit humans to travel as far as light has been able to travel since the big bang (some 13.7 billion light years) in one human lifetime. The space travellers could return to Earth billions of years in the future.”
Of course, forget about those pesky problems of energy-required and space debris.....
Let me try to give you a simplified example of the “twin-brother time dilation example” to show you what I’m talking about — in that there is *no time travel* going on, but only different aging rates happening — and nothing more...
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This is a simplified example of one of the twin brothers traveling out in space at a significant fraction of the speed of light and returning to earth. His twin stays on earth.
For sake of example, let’s say that they both (being twins) are going to live the same amount of “time” — in their own respective years....
I’m going to say that we’ve got a simplified atomic clock that “ticks” 100 ticks a year for a “measurement of time” for each of those twins. They’ve each got their own atomic time clock “ticking away” at that rate for each of them. They know how much time by passed for each of them, respectively where they’re at by simply counting off 100 “ticks”. That represents 1 year for each.
And so, they are *each* going to live the same amount of “time” before dying. They’re each going to get 80 years or a total of 8,000 “ticks” on their own atomic clocks. And also, the “trip” starts (into the stars and back again) when they are both 20 years old...
So now, they each count *their own years* by 100 ticks per year — but through some fine communications that they have (no matter that we don’t know what that communication is, or how it works or even if it can work... LOL...) — they are able to compare each other’s “time clock” to the other.
In the first year that passes by on earth Twin #1 says that he has passed 100 ticks and is one year older. But Twin #2 (traveling at a fast speed) has only counted 33 ticks in that same length of time that Twin #1’s clock has counted off 100 ticks.
And we find that each Twin’s internal processes and chemical processes, all based on the “time factor” in each one’s respective environments — are each operating *at the same rate* for *themselves* — that is the same processes happening in the 100-tick-per-year rate for each of them.
It’s just that Twin #2 is ticking off at a rate of 33 ticks to Twin #1’s rate of 100 ticks — at the “same time” (”relatively” speaking... LOL...). But, each *counts* — one year, for themselves — as being 100 ticks. So, Twin #2’s time is going about 1/3 the rate of Twin 1’s time passage. They are *both* passing the same amount of time — as they can talk to each other all the time, any time they want and compare ticks — but — they find that one is going at a rate 1/3 slower than the other.
So, by the time that Twin #2 returns back to earth, 60 years has passed by for Twin #1 (which means 6,000 ticks has passed by since the beginning of the trip, in terms of the earth-bound, Twin #1). But, for Twin #2 only 2,000 ticks have passed by, which makes him (in his aging and internal processes and so on) only 20 years older.
Twin #1 was 20 years old originally, is now 80 years old (because 60 years passed by for him) and has just died, after 8,000 ticks of his atomic clock on earth.
Twin #2 was 20 years old originally, is now 40 years old (after 20 years of traveling for *him*, the equivalent of 2,000 ticks), and he now, while on earth, still has another 4,000 ticks (on the atomic clock) of his life left, before he dies.
But, Twin #1 has already achieved his 8,000 ticks of life and he just died. Twin #2 has not yet achieved his 8,000 ticks of life, after his journey and still have another 4,000 left to go. He’ll continue living on earth for another 40 earth-years and die 40 years after his twin brother — although both lived to *exactly* the same age as the other and got *exactly* the same amount of ticks on their own atomic clocks — *exactly* 8,000 ticks on each of their own atomic time clocks.
That’s *not* time travel — but merely — aging and perceiving and experiencing time at *different rates* — while *both* lived exactly the same amount of “time”...
:-)
Thanks for the info. While I wasn't aware that the comparison "a little lower than" was with God Himself, I've always understood that redeemed humanity has an absolutely incredible destiny in store for it ...
I get tired of the mumbo jumbo, ethereal "we're all going to heaven" so many people cling to ... for the redeemed, it's a PHYSICAL resurrection into a PHYSICAL eternity ...
You said — I’ll give you that one, although the gravitational effect is extremely tiny—and doesn’t compare to that of relativistic, near-light-speed effects that I hoped we were talking about.
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Yes, I do agree that the effects are much more pronounced with a significant fraction of the speed of light, than from gravitational effects.
However, I do wonder what the gravitational effects would be, in regards to time dilation, in a black hole — even if a human being wouldn’t survive the experience... :-)
The really amazing thing and something to really affect one’s concept of time — is that “time” changes it’s speed — or I think *more accurately* (at least in my mind) is that “processes change their speed* in relation to the same amount of time passing by....
It is also *significant* that “time” is not something “universal” that exists independently of everything else — which is the way people think about it. Most people conceive of “time” as always being around — even for as along as God has been around — which is “forever” in the past and into the future. So, most people think of “time” as going alongside of God, all the while He was existing.
BUT ACTUALLY, time did not exist when God has always existed before — and time only *began to exist* when the matter and dimensionality of the universe was first created. And before there was a universe (even though God was “here”, so to speak, wherever “here” was ... LOL...) — there was *no time* in existence at all. Time cannot exist without the universe and the universe cannot exist without time — they are both “parameters” of the “whole thing” and don’t exist apart from each other...
And God is apart from time and the dimensionality of the universe being the uncaused and self-existent being that He is... (which is why God can tell the “beginning from the end” — because it’s all the same and seen “at once” for Him...). And that’s also why God never changes..., because He’s outside of the time parameter and the dimensionality of the universe...).
You said — I get tired of the mumbo jumbo, ethereal “we’re all going to heaven” so many people cling to ... for the redeemed, it’s a PHYSICAL resurrection into a PHYSICAL eternity ...
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Absolutely...
It’s nothing less than coming “full circle” and to the “full restoration” of what God created after six days. In other words, after our full redemption, along with the redemption of the entirety of Creation — we are right back at where we were at the end of Day 6 — except that God has even more glory and honor and adoration that we could have imagined before, along with millions upon millions of more souls to sing the praises to God in His Glory and Honor...
But brother #2, in space, is in his inertial reference, and his BROTHER, brother #1, on earth, is moving at near-light speed.
So when he callse brother #1, #2’s clock will say 100 ticks, and brother #1’s clock will say 33 ticks.
Except from brother #1’s inertial frame, #2 is 33 ticks while #1 is 100 ticks.
We, as observers, would agree with #1 if we are with #1, but if we are traveling with #2, we’d agree with him.
You said, in paragraph #2 — So when he callse brother #1, #2’s clock will say 100 ticks, and brother #1’s clock will say 33 ticks.
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I think you’ve got it wrong, right at that spot...
Earth-bound-Brother #1 — he’s staying on earth
Space-traveling-Brother #2 — is sailing along in space at fast speed
So, you’re saying that when space-traveling-Brother #2 has 100 ticks, that at that same moment of their call to one another that earth-bound-Brother #1 has 33 ticks?
I don’t think that’s it...
It’s that at the very moment that space-traveling-Brother #2 is seeing 100 ticks on his atomic clock — that talking to earth-bound-Brother #1, he’s seeing on his atomic clock (on earth) 300 ticks...
I’m saying that the *actual processes* themselves (in all areas of physics and life and chemistry and *anything* — in that environment of traveling at that high speed) — those actual processes are running 1/3 slower than the same processes at the “same time” (at that point of communication) with the earth-bound brother.
Traveler-#2 - 33 ticks — Earthbound-#1 - 100 ticks
Traveler-#2 - 100 ticks — Earthbound-#1 - 300 ticks
and it continues at that rate until they meet up again on earth, once more and are “together” in the same time — and at that time, their “atomic clocks” are then running at the same speed, together.
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AND..., if you check it out — I believe that is *exactly* how the example of “time dilation” — as described by the scientists, say that it works...
Okay, let me *expand* into one more area of how I’m describing “time dilation” in addition to explaining it in terms of the 100-ticks-per-year on each atomic time clock.
I’m going to give an example of “work being done” by each brother..., in addition to the “atomic time clock” ticking for each one.
Let’s say that each Twin brother knits sweaters... LOL... And they each knit at the same speed as the other one. It takes them one year to finish one sweater.
And we have, once again — these two...
Earth-bound-Brother #1 — he’s staying on earth
Space-traveling-Brother #2 — is sailing along in space at fast speed
And each twin is working on their sweater knitting, without stopping, until they meet up once again.
After space-traveling-brother #2 returns home, he has knitted 20 sweaters. But, when he asks to see his earth-bound-brother #2’s sweaters, he finds that his earth-bound brother has knitted 60 sweaters....
I hope that makes it clearer, yet again...
Mistake...
After space-traveling-brother #2 returns home, he has knitted 20 sweaters. But, when he asks to see his earth-bound-brother #2’s sweaters, he finds that his earth-bound brother has knitted 60 sweaters....
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Supposed to be...
After space-traveling-brother #2 returns home, he has knitted 20 sweaters. But, when he asks to see his earth-bound-brother #1’s sweaters, he finds that his earth-bound brother has knitted 60 sweaters....
As religion evolved, it went from being impersonal to very personal. As societies went from bare subsistence to being able to provide at least a minimal standard of goods and services for most members, it needed to change to deal with the growing power of individualism.
Tell me how these other “deities” died. I don’t think there are any similarities whatsoever to the life or death of Christ.
Plus, the Old Testament is pretty clear (Isaiah 53) that the Messiah would be killed for our righteousness. So, it’s not as if you can even make the claim that the early Christians grafted this on.
Look, the writings of the Apostle Paul as well as the Book of Acts — as well as the dating of those documents makes it pretty clear that there wasn’t a “layering of the Jesus story” in action. The book of 2 Timothy makes it pretty clear that the Apostle Paul was writing this right before he would be executed. Most sources place his death around ~65A.D. This puts his death within 30 years of Jesus’ crucifixion. That’s hardly any sort of time for mythology to build up in the ancient world. Especially of the sort you are implying. The Apostle John was very clear in the book of 1 John (written near the end of his life, so around 90A.D) that Jesus is our advocate.
Many of those other writings are fantastical in nature ..., for instance they have talking Crucifixes, they have Jesus telling His disciples that none can enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless they become men, etc... And most of them were not written until the 2nd century A.D. Well after Jesus and His disciples had passed away.
If your ‘evolution of religion’ hypothesis is to be believed, then Islam should involve a far more personal God than Christianity. Instead, the God of Islam is a very impersonal Cosmic Watchdog.
Thx for the ping. Well done.
You are correct, EXCEPT that speed and motion is relative to an observer.
When the brother #2 is “moving away” from earth at near the speed of light, the brother #2 will perceive it as standing still, and watching the earth move away at the speed of light. And according to Einstein, nobody can tell which is which. There is no way to measure which is “moving” and which is “standing still”, because those terms are relative.
So, if we decide that brother #2 isn’t moving, and instead brother #1 and the earth are moving at the speed of light away from #2, then #2 will see his clock go 100 ticks, but brother #1 would only go 33 ticks.
This is a real time paradox. Each brother perceives the other brother as moving away at near the speed of light.
BTW, imagine that both brothers leave earth, traveling in opposite directions, each going half the speed of light. Because of time dilation, the speed difference between the two is NOT the speed of light. You can deduce this because each brother can go 3/4ths the speed of light, but the speed difference between them can’t be 1.5 times the speed of light.
Anyway, if they are moving away from each other, each at .99 times the speed of light, when each look at the other they will perceive the other moving away at .999 times the speed of light, and again each will think the other is aging less rapidly than himself.
There is an explanation for all of this somewhere, but I can’t find it right now.
If that is true, and if GOd is all Good...why would he create the devil?
You asked — If that is true, and if GOd is all Good...why would he create the devil?
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Well.., the Bible doesn’t say that God created the devil as the being that he is now, but that Satan chose his way, and made himself that way, after the fact of being created a perfect and highest-order being.
It’s like Adam and Eve, too (and all born of Adam and Eve), in that God did not create them as murderers and adulterers and thieves and liars and so on, but God created them perfect. They also “chose their way”...
In other words, God gave Lucifer, a free will to choose his way, just as much as God gave Adam and Eve free will to choose their way.
There’s the crux of the issue.
I guess the question should actually be, “Why did God give these beings ‘free will’ to be able to choose to even disobey God?” — as God did not create their evil choices, but gave them perfect free will to do what they chose for themselves.
Well, one could say that if someone was traveling to Alpha Centauri system and then back to earth again — that you could describe it in two possibly different ways.
Way one... it’s the space ship that actually changes its speed and increases and decreases upon approach to Alpha Centauri and then once again it increases speed and then decreases its speed upon approaching its home planet of earth.
OR, way two — we could say that earth and our solar system, *and* the Alpha Centauri system — all together in one united movement — all move away from the space ship (with the Alpha Centauri system, moving towards the space ship, in the same movement and speed as our entire solar system) — all of them speed up and then slow down, and on the “return flight”, Alpha Centauri and our Solar System all speed up and then slow down, once again (all working together in this movement) — while the spaceship just stays in the same place (never accelerating and never decelerating)... LOL...
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I’ll let people here pick the more sensible of the two methodologies for “traveling through space”... :-)
The *key* here is not what it “appears to be” — but rather — *who* is *accelerating* to a significant fraction of the speed of light and *who* is *decelerating* to the same original speed as before (when the whole thing started...).
LOL...
Thanks ST, you answered much better than I would have.
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