Posted on 07/14/2009 11:41:13 PM PDT by Quix
I too have found the same issues. I think the church abandoning the Confessions and Constitutions are some of the reasons we are in the mess we are in. The Confessions are only a guide to the scriptures. I have really enjoyed reading through the Westminster Confession of 1644 and the Baptist Confession of 1642. These are the bedrock of the Protestant faith.
Quix, I didn't mean to offend but don't you see something wrong with this statement. I would suggest that you should have a powerful overwhelming presence of God every day. You simply need to be still. The best time I sense God's presence is in looking at the sunrise or the stars. He is always near to us.
HarleyD, If you had the privilege of driving by the service described in this case, would you drive by or would you take a risk of stretching your comfort zone and joining the service?
In a sense this is a true statement. However, would you agree that some people might try too hard for the experience? Isn't God the one that usually does the unexpected thing? Does God manifest himself to us because we want it or He wants it. I do agree if you do not want it he probably won't bother doing it. Then again maybe he might, Wasn't that Mack's case in The Shack?
My point is putting God in a box is not wise. Our preconceived notions are probably wrong.
One blessing I now enjoy is that I am no longer tied to a denominational box.
THERE’S A WORLD . . . A HEAVEN OF DIFFERENCE, Harley.
Not offended. No need to be concerned about that. I’d still value you and treasure you regardless of what you said to me.
It would appear that I am inadequate to communicate on this issue without more EXPERIENCE that only GOD can provide.
I have had a range of such experiences and none as intense as Tommy described.
The more intense that I’ve had were sufficiently atypical to conventional status quo Christianity that the differences were quite stark.
I am a bit puzzled . . . on the one hand you seem to decry such an EXPERIENCE of God and on the other hand you say one should have maximum intensity of God 24/7.
The EXPERIENCE OF GOD I’m describing is akin to Isaian’s description . . . to the several Scriptural mentions of folks being flat on the ground just because of being near to angels who had been in the PRESENCE of God.
How would one be a good father mother or co-worker being imobilized on the floor face down 24/7?
A MOST EXCELLENT question.
Thanks
God IS sovereign
He persistently makes exceptions.
Generally, however, He rewards those most who most SEEK HIM WHOLEHEARTEDLY & PERSISTENTLY.
THX
Indeed.
Sorry this is so late in responding. I'm getting ready to leave on vacation starting in a few moments.
In my earlier Christian days, I was known to sit through these types of services and enjoy them. Later in my Christian life, I was known to get up and walk out...all the while people chasing me to come back. The difference is that I find there to be little emphasis on scripture and more about "what God can do for you". It is no different that Joel Osteen or some other preacher saying that God will bless you if you just keep asking, or tithing, or fill in the blank. And then others are jealous when you receive that big promotion, speak in tongues, bring a person to Christ, fill in the blank. That is not what being a Christian is all about.
Personally, I think God has done more than enough for me already. I don't wish for this to come off sounding "fakey" but I'm simply not worthy of anything more unless God so grants it to me. Please don't think this is false humility. I am not a very humble person. That's simply the way I think. If God wants to shower me with all sorts of His blessings that's fine. If God has designated bitterness, then I pray that He'll provide with the strength to see it through and that I would be a worthy servant. But, the decision is up to Him and I'll rest in whatever He chooses to give to me. I really don't deserve any more then the crumbs that fall from the table.
Blessings on your vacation.
I don’t think it’s false humility. You sound authentic enough to me.
I still believe, however, that
THERE’S A HUGE, HUGE, HUGE and evidently unknown-to-you
DIFFERENCE
between THIS TYPE of service such as you attended
and the service of the quality and intensity that Tommy described. They may seem quite similar to you.
I assure you that they are essentially NOT that similar at all. The difference is extremely great and stark. I’ve been in both kinds, too.
. . . A hungry heart inside a man with an unbowed head (mind) and an unbroken (unsubmitted) will is a recipe for misery.
Now if God can do that in the bar room, why should we be surprised at all the other things He can do "all by Himself"? (Most people who don't come from a church background will tell you that the first time they felt the prick of the conviction of God was in some place other than in a church service or religious setting.) All these instances illustrate the effects of the omnipresence of God, the quality of His presence being everywhere, all the time.
Yet even though God is everywhere all the time, there are also times when He concentrates the very essence of His being into what many call "the manifest presence of God." When this happens, there is a strong sense and awareness that God Himself has "entered the room." You might say that althought He is indeed everywhere all the time, there are also specific period of time when He is "here" more than "there." For divine reasons, God chooses to concentrate or reveal Himself more strongly in one place than another, or more at one time than another.
This concept may disturb you theologically. You may be thinking, Wait a minute. God is always here. He's omnipresent. That's true, but why did He say, "If My people, which are called by My name shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face..."? (See Second Chronicles 7:14.) If they are already His people, what other level of "Him" are they to "seek"?
Seek His face! Why? It is because His favor flows wherever His face is directed. You can be God's child and not have His favor, much as an earthly child would be in disfavor but not disowned.
That phrase in the verse is particularly interesting. God told His people for all generations that if they would seek His face and "turn from their wicked ways," then He would har them and heal their land. How can we be God's pople and have wicked ways? Perhaps our "wicked ways" explain why we have been content just to be in God's vicinity instead of gazing upon His face. The only thing that is going to turn the focus and favor of God toward us in our hunger. We must repent, reach for His face, and pray. "God, look at us, and we'll look to You."
Too often God's people can be guided only by the written Word or the prophetic word. The Bible says He wants us to move beyond that to a place marked by a greater degree of tenderness of heart toward Him and by a deeper maturity that allows Him to "guide us with His eye" God is everywhere, but He doesn’t turn His face and His favor everywhere. That is why He tells us to seek His face. Yes, He is present with you every time you meet with other believers in a worship service, but how long has it been since your hunger caused you to crawl up in His lap, and like a child, to reach up and take the face of God to turn it toward you? Intimacy with Him![emphasis Qx added] That is what God desires, and His face should be our highest focus.
The Israelites referred to the manifest presence of God as the shekinah glory of God. When God began to talk about interested in the gold-=covered box with the artifacts inside it. He was interested in the blue flame that hovered between the outstretched wings of the cherubim on top of the ark . . . there was something about the flame that signified that God Himself was present. And wherever the glory or manifested presence of God went, there was victory, power, and blessing. Intimacy will bring about “blessing,” but the pursuit of “blessing” won’t always bring about intimacy.
What we cry for is a restoration of the manifested presence of God. When Moses was exposed to the glory of God, the residue of that glory caused his face to shine so much that when he came back down from the mountain, the people said, “Moses, you must cover your face. We can’t bear to look at you” (see Ex. 34:29-35). . . .
When God begins to visit in a place or among a people, unusual things start happening simply because He is there. If you don’t believe me, ask Jacob. . . . (see Gen. 35:1-3). . . . (Gen.35:5) . . .
The manifest presence of God often lingers in a place even when no one else is around. I remember the day a member of the church staff at a church that God invaded crossed the platform in the sanctuary on a weekday to refresh the platform water. He never made it back. Three hours later somebody noticed he was gone and they went looking for him. The light was dim in the sanctuary, and when they turned on the lights, they saw the man lying prostrate on the platform where he had fallen after stumbling into the cloud of His presence.
There have been times when a cloud of the presence of God would suddenly show up as God’s people worshiped. Now that is when things get scary. It could be the mist of the glory of God beginning to congeal itself before our eyes. I don’t understand it. I’m just telling you it has happened.
One of the pastors there had a brother-in-law who was an atheist. In fact, he wasn’t just an atheist; he was an “evangelistic atheist.” This brother-in-law was the kind of guy whom you wanted to avoid at family gatherings because he always causes trouble and started heated arguments. In the middle of God’s invasion of this particular church, this brother-in-law called the pastor’s wife (who was his sister). He told her, “Look, I’m flying in. Would you pick me up? I just want to spend a couple of days with you.”
The pastor knew something was up, because this brother-in-law had never done that before. When he arrived, it was obvious that he didn’t know what he was doing there. It was the strangest thing. There they were, trying to make conversation with each other when they had nothing in common. . . . As they passed by the church, the pastor said, “That’s the church. We just finished some remodeling.”
Since the brother-in-law had never seen it, and figuring it was yet another way to plug an awkward moment of silence, this pastor said, “You wouldn’t want to go in and look at it would you?”
To his complete surprise, his atheist brother-in-law said, “Ys, I would.”
The pastor pulled into the church parking lot and then unlocked the door to the church building. His brother-in-law was right behind him, and the pastor’s wife was third in line. The pastor stepped inside and held the door open for his brother-in-law, and the moment the man’s foot touched the floor on the other side of the threshold, he crumpled in a heap and began to weep and cry out, “My God, help me! I’m not ready for this. I don’t know how to do this! What am I going to do?”
Then he grabbed the pastor and said, “Tell me how to get saved right now!” The whole time he was writhing on the floor and crying uncontrollably. So this pastor led his brother-in-law to the Lord right there while he was sprawled half-in and half-out of the building while his sister patiently held the door open! Her atheist brother had an encounter with the “residue” or lingering presence of the glory of God.
As soon as he regained a measure of coherence, they asked him, “What happened to you?” He said, “I don’t know how to explain it. All I know is that when I was outside the building I was an atheist and I didn’t believe that God existed. But when I stepped across that threshold, I met Him and I knew it was God. I knew I had to get right, and I felt horrible about my life.” Then he added, “It just took all the strength out of me.”
What could happen in a city or a region if this strength of “presence” expanded beyond the localized area of the church building?
The excerpts are from
THE GOD CHASERS: “My Soul Follows Hard After Thee”
by
Tommy Tenney
Thanks Quix,
I have often wondered why God will sometimes just enter into the ives of those who don’t ask, don’t know Him and don’t seem to even want to, while often He seems elusive to those of us who pray and ask and sincerely want to experience His presence. Sometimes I wonder if we try too hard. Thought?? Thanks.
What an interesting question, jackv. I used to be an Episcopalian, but find these folk have gone “left”, and are totally out in the field.
Do we sometimes forget to look at the details of our lives when searching for His presence and guiding hand? I can see his work in mine when I look back at the good things that happened to me, after I endured some very difficult circumstances.
I have felt His presence several times over my 65 years, but it has never been when I expected it. Perhaps we have a “pre-conceived” idea of what His presence “should” be like, and therefore miss the moments He is there, guiding our feet in the way He plans for us?
The older I get, and the more I try to meld my heart and my thoughts, the more I wonder about how the many different ways people try to define, construct, and then explain what “Believing” should be in denominational terms.
Jesus told us that His Father’s house had many mansions. I have often wondered about how many different ways that could be understood.
I now think it is possible that no mere human can ever understand God’s power or plan, and that our efforts to structure our beliefs denominationally will always miss His power and glory.
Often pondered the same points.
1. I know that striving—particularly in our own strength—maybe there’s no other kind—is futile, if not counter productive.
2. How to discern between avoiding striving and still being fittingly responsible is still a growing edge for me.
3. I think in cases such as this atheist . . . perhaps God was aware of an inner heart attitude genuinely seeking AUTHENTICITY, REALITY, TRUTH VIS A VIS GOD ETC. AND UTTER DISGUST WITH PHONY, SHAM, !!!RELIGION!!! (vs RELATIONSHIP) etc. . . . all of which GOD GREATLY AGREES WITH. Vs the Pharisee who is smugly self-righteous, haughty, controlling, etc. etc. etc. . . . so will meet the atheist dramatically . . . or a Saul of Tarsish.
4. I’m still learning “letting go and letting God” in significant ways. So I don’t know that I have much wisdom to offer on that score. There are things about MY YOKE IS EASY AND MY BURDEN LIGHT that still mystify me. . . . as well as . . . about resting IN HIM continually while running the race with my utmost as unto The Lord. Though I know I’ve made progress, by His Grace in those matters.
5. Been accused of trying to hard and thinking too much most of my life. Including just today by Pastor Coleman on one of her regular visits up from Phoenix. That I had to repent of trying to figure things out on my own instead of continually giving up to God and trusting God and resting and being at peace in Him. I noted that I’d repeatedly done that as well as I knew how and began to cry feeling helpless to make that grade as she’d noted that repenting without being connected to God did no good. Somehow she felt convinced that in my crying out to God I’d connected with Him and He would touch me and change me on such scores.
I pray ‘tis so. Trusting and obeying as well as I know how. What else can we do?
EXCELLENT POINTS.
I’ve often wondered if pursuing God is sometimes (often?) like the proverb about chasing after happiness being like chasing a butterfly . . . the more we chase it, the more it eludes us . . . until we sit calmly and it comes and sits on our finger.
BE STILL and KNOW I am God, He says.
Are we toooo much ado about nothing?
Sigh.
In His Plan, there is nothing we can ever do to merit salvation, it is purely by grace. We are saved by faith, not because of our faith. Just as there is nothing we can ever do to merit the salvation He provides, there is also nothing we can ever do to lose the salvation He provides once we receive eternal life.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.