The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]

Catholic Culture ^ | 12/01 | Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Purgatory is a man made construct built on false premises in order to keep man spiritually enslaved.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is a place of intolerable suffering and agony. Cardinal Bellarmine said "the pains of purgatory are very severe, surpassing any endured in this life." Death is not the disciple of the Risen Christ joyfully going home to be with his Savior but the fearful soul going to a place of unspeakable horror and suffering. This suffering is supposed to make satisfaction for the unrepentant guilt. Here they suffer the pain and anguish resulting from the fact that they are excluded from the presence of the Lord and endure the "punishment of the senses", that is, suffers positive pains which afflict the soul. The duration as well as the intensity of the suffering varies according to the degree of purification still needed.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that this suffering can be shortened and alleviated by the prayers and good works of the faithful on earth and especially the sacrifice of the mass. The Pope is supposed to have the jurisdiction over purgatory. It is his peculiar prerogative to grant indulgences lightening the suffering or even terminating them.

The doctrine of purgatory offers the false hope that man has a chance to be saved after death.

It rests on the false doctrine that justification is progressive...

AMEN! Great and Godly post.

Amazing, isn't it, that some people actually want to ignore the liberty found in Christ alone and instead remain shackled to their own sins?

[boatbums]

Sorry...been fixin' supper.

26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

I see this as 'pigeonholing'. Every time you see a certain word you automatically assume the word means only one thing. Hence, faith is 'dead' without works. You see this as meaning going to hell. Dead here means not producing fruit, lifeless. If you have real faith, like Abraham, that faith is made manifest by the outward work in your life. James speaks of Abraham being justified before the people's eyes "Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?" SEEST thou?

There is no contradiction in the Word of God. If James is saying that we are justified (as in saved) by our own works, then we would have to toss out all scripture that says the opposite and there are many, many more scriptures that say we are justified by faith. Even in the context of the very passages you are quoting here.

[bdeaner]

Thanks for getting back to me on James 2.

I'm still not clear about what you mean in your response. You read my post as implying that I believe faith without works leads to damnation in Hell. Actually, that's not what I believe as a Catholic. The Catholic Church believes that faith without works is "dead" in the sense that you just stated -- that, without outward expression in works, faith is not really faith. Faith and works go together, and both are made possible by grace. That's Catholic soteriology. If someone is engaged in works without faith, as Paul teaches us, they are like the Pharisees -- just going through the motions, following the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law. But, as James teaches us, faith without works is dead, because genuine faith is a total faith through grace provides us with the understanding of the true meaning of the Law as it is fulfilled through Christ. How do you see your notion of salvation as different from Catholics? It seems they are not so different after all.

So, what happens to a person who says they have faith, but does not demonstrate faith through their works? Do they go to Hell, or to Heaven, or what? If a person says, "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior," but they do not commit themselves to a Christ-like existence in the world, what happens? Are they still saved? Do they get the same reward as the person who does commit to a Christ-like existence? The same reward as the person with faith who demonstrates the genuineness of that faith through his action?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Chrisy and Scripture speak clearly and often about heaven and hell. Their existence isn't being hidden from us or obscured.

Why would God not clearly tell us of a place like purgatory if it really existed, especially since it contradicts so much of the Bible?

Purgatory is fiction. And its deceitful declaration should tell you how the RCC operates.

[boatbums]

So what??? Are you kidding???

I was replying to your response to NOSTERREX when he/she quoted scripture concerning being justified by faith alone. You said to him/her:

Again, your “faith alone” quote is twisted.

Martin Luther, and the King James Bible, both did a terrible job on that particular verse, and they did an even worse job in the interpretation of their poorly translated version.

Martin Luther decided what he wanted, and then wrote a Bible to support his views

I quoted the exact scripture text, no commentary added, from three sources - NIV, KJV and the ever-only, infallible Douay-Rheims. I don't see much difference.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

A man is saved FOR good works, not BY good works: Ephesians 2:10. Good works are just the fruit of salvation already posessed.

Amen!

[Nosterrex]

Are you a Biblical exegete? Do you even know the original languages, or are you just repeating what you heard someone else say? When I do my preparations for Sunday, I translate from the original languages, and I don't have to depend upon an English translation. I do, however, compare my translation with various other translations, and I often compare the Greek with the Vulgata.
Do you even read German? You say that Luther did a terrible job, but unless you read German, how would you know?

I don't wish to be ugly, but before you start making accusations, it is wise to know what you are talking about.

[Nosterrex]

Works don’t save, but the saved have works. All Christians produce good works, even a one day old baby produces good works.

[boatbums]

I cannot see inside a person's heart, only God can do that. But He does tell us that “by their fruits you shall know them.” So if a person says he/she has accepted Christ as savior yet continues to live their life as if nothing changed inside, continuing in sin, with no remorse, no conviction of the Holy Spirit to live a life that honors the Lord, I would say I see no evidence of their faith. I SEE NO EVIDENCE. It is still between that individual and God. I can only look on the outward appearance, God looks at the heart.

Perhaps this is why James pressed the BELIEVERS to not disgrace their profession of faith to the unbelievers. We love God because He first loved us and gave His son so that we may be with Him for eternity.

[boatbums]

I have no desire to strip Jesus of His Jewishness. He is the promised Messiah. The blood of bulls, goats, birds and yearly, the spotless lamb, that were offered on the altar of the Temple were but a covering (expiation) for the sins of the people. They made these offerings in faith that, one day, God would bring the Messiah, the savior, the Christ. His sacrifice would end the need for any future blood sacrifices - he was the propitiation (satisfactory payment) for our sins. The veil of the temple between the Holy of Holies (the mercy seat of YHWH) and the rest of the temple was torn and we can come to God directly. Approach the throne of grace.

When He came, it was Jesus (Jehovah Yasha (sp?); Yeshua Hammashea - literally God with Us)

I actually see myself as a “by faith” child if Abraham. That's why we refer to Judeo-Christian faith. It is a continuum from Adam and Eve.

[Kansas58]

Again, you are wrong in your interpretation, and you are leaving out the fact that “Faith without Works is dead”.

EVERY reference you gave can be interpreted to mean that an Atheist who follows all of the Commandments will not make it into Heaven.

[Kansas58]

Oh?
And for 1500 years not a single, prominent Christian, or any Christian important enough to be recorded, agreed with YOU on this subject.
Why is that?
Several Biblical verses have been provided, on this thread, which clearly indicate the existence of Purgatory.
You simply refuse to be educated on the subject.

[Kansas58]

What, exactly, was the point of the “Good Samaritan” if not to promote good works, even to those who were not of the same faith or nationality?

How, exactly, can you read the Sermon on the Mount and still believe that works are not important?

[boatbums]

I was replying to KANSAS58’s slam of you! He said your quote of scripture about faith was pointless because you were quoting from Luther's translation, I only quoted back the verse to him in three versions including Douay-Rheims (which I facetiously referred to as the only true, etc.) I wanted to show him it said the same thing in all three translations.

I've been enjoying your postings and admire your knowledge. I'm on your side!! Sorry you misunderstood my post.

[ET(end tyranny)]

I’ll take YHWH over Paul, but thanks anyway.

[boatbums]

See I'm just not understanding where you are coming from here. I gave no interpretation, I only quoted the scripture that was referred to and you slammed the guy because you said it was from Luther - whom you obviously despise. I wanted to show you that even the Catholic bible (Douay-Rheims) says the same thing as the King James and the New International Bibles.

Can we get off this hobbyhorse?

[ET(end tyranny)]

EVERY reference you gave can be interpreted to mean that an Atheist who follows all of the Commandments will not make it into Heaven.

You are correct. It is our adherence to YHWH's Commandments that 'mark' us as His, not any label that we may or may not attach to our 'faith'. It isn't about labels, it's about doing YHWH's will.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Amazing. With that one sentence you have put yourself outside orthodox, historical, Biblical Christianity.

Perhaps because Jesus was a practicing Jew his whole life and not a Christian and so, I have no reason to try and fit into the Christian box?

If indeed Jesus came as the final sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world, why do The Holy Scriptures proclaim that the Third Temple will be built and sacrifices resumed during the Messianic era?

[Kansas58]

I do not “despise” Luther.
However, I do think Luther was an anti-Semite, with no real love of the Jewish people.
This may well have had something to do with Luther stripping several books from the Bible that had to do with Jewish custom and Faith, near the time of Jesus.

Luther was actually right a few times, like when Luther told King Henry that he had no just reason to leave the Catholic Church.

Again, my problem with all of your citations, concerning faith and works and justification is, still:

IF you want to make sure that people understand that merely following the law is not enough, how would you say such a thing?

If you want to make sure that people understand that simply doing good works is not enough, how would you say such a thing?

You are using targeted verses to EXCLUDE the entire teaching.

We are to have faith and works.

Either, without the other, is not complete.

[ET(end tyranny)]

The Church Fathers, those Christians closest to the apostles in time, culture, and theological background, clearly understood that Jesus promised to build the Church on Peter, as the following passages show.”

I have always found it interesting that the church was supposed to be founded upon Peter, yet it is James the Just that succeeded Jesus.