First catch two more of these.
Posted on 07/27/2009 2:04:08 PM PDT by marcbold
Yeah sure, God become man. And He definitely rose from the dead. But there's no way he multiplied loaves and fishes for people to eat.
That's the logic of so many when they deny the physical nature of the miracle of loaves and fishes from yesterday's Gospel. What is the problem some people have with this miracle?
I've heard it argued (even from the pulpit) that this was not a physical miracle but a spiritual one in that the people were so moved by Jesus' words that they shared. Come on, if it was just about sharing, do they really believe all four gospel writers would've mentioned the story.
Case in point. I read this today from the Arkansas Catholic:
Did Jesus really create miracle of multiplying loaves, fishes? Q. We heard at Sunday Mass the Gospel (from Matthew) on the miracle of the loaves and fish. Our priest said the miracle was a spiritual one, in which everyone shared what they had and everyone ate. He never stated that it was indeed a physical miracle of multiplying the bread and fish, as I was led to believe in reading the Bible. Which is true? (Seeds of Faith, Question Corner) At it's heart, isn't questioning this physical miracle questioning Jesus himself. Why can you believe that God created the heavens, man, earth, fish, the stars but have a problem believing He multiplied loaves and fishes?
Never mind the implications that particular gospel has on the Eucharist. Is it an overall problem with the miraculous. I mean, perhaps it's easier for some to believe in the huge miracle of creation than in the more "mundane" miracles of water into wine and multiplying loaves and fishes. Don't know why though.
Jesus is Lord. God said it that settles it. In the Old Testament Elijah filled empty cruises with oil in another instance bread meal was multiplied.
If Elijah can do it, Jesus certainly can do it.
Miracles are still happening today, if we would just open our eyes and believe on the Lord.
Isn’t that a catfish? I don’t believe they are kosher.
PS C:\> "fish" * 10
fishfishfishfishfishfishfishfishfishfish
PS C:\>
Goodness gracious! That’s one big honkin’ catfish! It must have been a very old one. How many years would it take for a catfish to grow that big, I wonder?
Are you trying to tell me the creator of the universe can’t whip up some fish and chips on a whim?
If they can’t believe something like Jesus multiplying a few loaves and fishes, just how do they believe he created the universe and all of creation, or do they believe that either?
This just sounds like people who say they believe in God, but don’t really.
I cant quote the Bible correctly I am sad to say, but doesnt that story say that after the feast that they picked up 16 baskets of left over bread and fish??
16 baskets left over from 5 loaves and two fish is a lot of sharing.
If you put yourself, or find yourself, in the position of needing miracles from time to time, you may have a better feel for the subject.
Sometimes weird things happen right when they need to happen; if you walk it back you can see how circumstances worked together for it to all come together when it needed to come together.
And sometimes its hard even to “walk it back” at all to any clear explanation except that it needed to happen when it happened and it did.
I don’t question things like this because I’ve seen things analogous to this. Miracles aren’t magic (magic isn’t a miracle) but they are no less miracles. Exactly how did God feed everyone with a couple of fish? I don’t know. I wasn’t there. Did he do it by magic? No. Did he do it? It says here that he did. That gives me a bit of confidence when I’m in a tight spot.
Put yourself in a position where you need God’s intervention and you’ll start to recognize it when it happens.
The details don’t matter. When someone says they believe in God, they are saying that they believe in an omnipotent entity. By definition, an omnipotent entity can do anything, so it’s ridiculous to believe in God, and believe that any limitations at all could apply.
“16 baskets left over from 5 loaves and two fish is a lot of sharing.”
I looked it up just now - seven baskets of bread pieces left over from seven loaves and a few small fish. That IS a lot of sharing.
Especially considering Jesus said: “I have compassion for these people; they have already been with me three days and have NOTHING to eat. I do not want to send them away hungry, or they may collapse on the way.”
The disciples answered “Where could we get enough bread in this remote place to feed such a crowd?”
BTW - the four thousand number does not include women and children.
It was 5,000 men (not including women and children) and He did it again at another sermon with (I think) 3,000 men (again, not including women and children).
I don’t get this argument, though. Either the Bible’s all true or it’s all lies. Why are people trying to read into it what’s not there? All four gospel writers mention this miracle. It’s people eating. They were hungry, they ate. I’m sure 1st Century folks were simple-minded compared to us “enlightened” 21st century folks, but eating is eating, and the descriptions were pretty blatant with no gray area as to what they were talking about.
There were actually 2 events. In the one, four thousand were fed, in the other five thousand with 12 baskets left.
Yeah, and the manna was just everybody sharing their bread.
Can't stand these bloody socialists in ecclesiasal clothing, like the homilist in question.
If you go to the free part of the Arkansas Catholic site, you'll see the question asked, but the answer are for subscribers of the hard copy paper alone.
Now with the condition of AMCHURCH®™, I would be afraid to read the answer, but it's really pretty simple, particularly if one looks at the readings as a whole (the first reading was 2 Kgs 4:42-44, the Psalm was Ps 145:10-11, 15-16, 17-18, and the NT reading was Eph 4:1-6 (followed by the Gospel in question: Jn 6:1-15). In other words, God is our sufficiency.
Considering the overwhelming number of Catholics who believe that the events in the "old testament" are "mythological"--and the vehemence with which they argue this--it only makes sense that they'd deny the "stuff that can't actually happen" in the NT as well. Indeed, they're more consistent than the Catholics who reject the miracles of the Hebrew Bible but believe all of the "new testament."
Of course, they won't ever be totally consistent till they reject all miracles altogether.
It is an interesting topic to me.
I remember a decade or so ago, inspecting some facilities which had insufficient fire protection piping. The facilities were secure and classified warehousing, where the managers and warehousemen knew little about the codes, but would receive operating budgets and catalogs of various warehousing equipment they could buy and assemble off the shelf, to produce mezzanines. Unfortunately, building mezzanines in storage areas also requires some foundation and fire protection systems to be added to meet fire codes.
The funding train to procure such things were frequently lagging their identification by 5-15 years, and in this particular situation, other mezzanine space, which had just been modified to comply with fire codes, was now subject to a complete demolition of the interiors to make space for administrative areas. Adjacent to this area being demolished, was a new mezzanine area, which needed fire protection, and was inadequately serviced. I happened upon this situation by nearly bumping in to an exposed 2” fire protection lateral, which had incompletely been installed, with exposed sharp pipe nearly cutting my back.
I took some measurements and left that day, thinking of the absurdity of the new compliant systems now being demolished, while spaces requiring the systems were insufficiently funded to be installed, probably wouldn’t be funded for another decade, and I was probably the only soul on the planet even cognizant of the situation, and not supported to correct anything.
So I decided to send out a simple prayer. I placed in His hands for Him to resolve and recognized that those who were stewards of the area, simply didn’t have the resources or knowledge of how to handle the situation and dismissed it in His hands.
I returned to work after the weekend, went back down to the site where all this piping had previously been found in my jobwalk prior to the weekend, but much to my surprise, all of the fire protection piping systems were plumbed up.
Now here is where I found myself. The warehouse had been secure, nobody allowed access over the weekend. No labor or construction allowed, and the piping where none previously existed, had a crust of dust on its top such that it had been there for years. The fire mains were connected, where previously they weren’t supportable structurally in an obvious fashion, even to some offices which were about to also be demolished, but later to be left in place, also were now protected. Leaving the site, I also noticed a new fire hydrant across the street, never before recorded on our records, and it had been there a while, not recently installed, from my perceptions.
At this point, I figured I must have just dreamt or imagined the entire affair, thinking it was more likely I had a lapse of recall, or thought thing really weren’t there, maybe in a dream, and mistakenly recalled the dream instead of reality. So convinced was I of my own poor recollection, simply by the inconceivable witness I had of the physical situation, I even comments to my boss I must be losing it and maybe I needed some time to rest. About 30 seconds after that, I walked into my office and noticed on my desk a set of drawings I had forgotten about, which I had with me the previous Friday. I had actually measured the piping which hadn’t been connected, in order to possibly start a project to fix the problem, but discarded them when I knew there were higher priorities. In other words, even after observing a miracle having occurred, I convinced myself I had to have been mistaken, only to later found my errors were not in faulty recollection, but in failing to remain in faith in Him and what He might actually provide when we place things in Hs hands purely by faith alone.
I checked into the situation several times after that and nobody had a contract nor were paid to work in the area or have access to it to install such systems there in the window I observed it. FWIW, some 6 months later, the hydrant I observed, wasn’t around anymore, in somewhat the same fashion, and it wasn’t metals theft.
I don;t think such things are all that common, but when they do occur, we have been scarred in our thinking to not place faith in Christ first, but in our worldly systems of living. We frequently overlook where true miracles occur, much of the time by our worldly thinking.
It was almost a ‘Matrix’ moment when bumping into such situations, but I believe they do occur. The gnostics touch upon the issue, but IMHO, instead of giving credit where it is due, to Christ Jesus, they slip into pagan perceptions of cause and effect, thereby missing what He provides in His grace for us.
Through faith in Christ, all things are possible, by His will, not ours independent of Him.
While I don’t share your chr*stian beliefs, G-d is indeed amazing, and the world isn’t the air-tight, sealed, naturalistic system most people think it to be.
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