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Scholar says Baptists neglect lessons from Virgin Mary
ABP ^ | July 30, 2009 | Robert Marus

Posted on 08/01/2009 1:51:11 PM PDT by NYer

EDE, Netherlands (ABP) -- A Latina theologian says overreaction to Catholic veneration of the Virgin Mary has caused Baptists to miss important biblical teaching associated with the mother of Jesus.

Nora Lozano
Nora Lozano, associate professor of biblical and theological studies at Baptist University of the Americas, found potential liberation for women -- both Protestant and Catholic -- in Latin America and elsewhere by taking another look at the biblical story of Mary, Jesus' mother.

Lozano, a participant in theological conversations between the Baptist World Alliance and the Vatican, made the remarks in a presentation to the BWA Commission on Doctrine and Interchurch Cooperation at a meeting of global Baptists in the Netherlands.

She noted the Mexican story of the Virgin of Guadalupe -- a purported apparition of Mary to an indigenous peasant in Mexico City in the 16th century -- and how closely it ties the identity of the nation's Catholicism with Mary, who serves as a sort of "demi-goddess."

There are analogous Virgin Mary cults of devotion in other Latin American countries.

Lozano said Mexican Baptists and other Protestants, meanwhile, actively ignore Mary, to the extent of giving the biblical character short shrift.

"It seems that there is a consensus among these Baptists to disregard, neglect or reject the Virgin Mary," Lozano said, speaking of an informal survey she had done of some of her global Baptist colleagues.

And, in countries where Catholics are a majority, she added, "Baptists tend to move back and forth between actively rejecting and simply ignoring Mary."

In those countries, Lozano noted, "This becomes one of the major barriers to relations between Catholics and Baptists."

Because Mary is so perfect in popular Catholic theology in Latin America -- perpetually a virgin, although a mother; blameless, even sinless -- Lozano said she becomes an impossible standard of womanhood. Nonetheless, many men look for this standard in the mother of their children.

On the other hand, Lozano noted, Mary's opposite -- the wanton harlot -- is what many men tend to look for in sex partners. Being forced to choose between the two stereotypes can be deadly for women.

"When these [images of Mary and her opposite] are misused, they become oppressive and a source of suffering for women," she said. "Neither one of these models is a good one for women, because they do not present women as complete human beings."

Lozano said that embracing the "life-giving" aspects of Marian veneration can be both healthy for all women and a bridge between Latin American Protestants and Catholics, she contended.

Lozano pointed to two passages dealing with Mary in the Christmas story as recorded in Luke's Gospel: The angel's announcement to Mary that she would bear Christ (Luke 1:26-38), and Mary's song of praise to God, often called the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55).

Mary is not a passive presence in those stories, Lozano pointed out, but an active and willing participant in God's work who was "well aware of social injustices," she said.

"She is subject with a strong will and a social consciousness," Lozano noted.

Lozano delivered her remarks on the second day of the BWA's Annual Gathering in Ede, Netherlands. Hundreds of Baptists from around the world came to conduct BWA General Council business as well as observe the 400th anniversary of the Baptist movement, which began in the summer of 1609 in nearby Amsterdam.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: baptist; vatican; virginmary
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1 posted on 08/01/2009 1:51:11 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Catholic ping!


2 posted on 08/01/2009 1:51:56 PM PDT by NYer ("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8.


3 posted on 08/01/2009 1:57:55 PM PDT by cranked
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To: NYer

I am a Baptist, I am really inspired by Our Lady of Guadolupe or however spell it


4 posted on 08/01/2009 1:58:07 PM PDT by mel
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To: NYer

I’m a Baptist, and you Catholics can believe what you want.


5 posted on 08/01/2009 1:59:25 PM PDT by devane617 (Republicans first strategy should be taking over the MSM. Without it we are doomed.)
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To: NYer

Ignoring the immaculate conception of Mary leads to ignoring the immaculate conception of Jesus....Just Saying...


6 posted on 08/01/2009 1:59:38 PM PDT by x_plus_one (Only ACORN could put a long legged mac daddy, quasi-muslim, communist freak into the white house...)
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To: NYer
>A Latina theologian says overreaction to Catholic veneration of the Virgin Mary has caused Baptists to miss important biblical teaching associated with the mother of Jesus

But is she a wise
Latina theologian?
Now, what does JLo

have to say about
the theology of that
Co-Redemptrix thing?

7 posted on 08/01/2009 2:03:34 PM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: NYer

I’d rather eat broken glass than have a conversation with her.

It’s like aiming at the barn and hitting a gnat in the next county.


8 posted on 08/01/2009 2:03:53 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (TAZ:Untamed, Unpredictable, Uninhibited.)
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To: x_plus_one
So was Mary's mother then immaculated? Her mother, her mother's mother ??? How can someone be born sinless from a mother who was not???

Just saying .....

9 posted on 08/01/2009 2:05:35 PM PDT by SkyDancer ('Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..' ~ Thomas Jefferson)
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To: TASMANIANRED
I’d rather eat broken glass than have a conversation with her.

"Her" meaning the author of this article?

10 posted on 08/01/2009 2:17:31 PM PDT by NYer ("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer
She forgot the Wedding at Cana as an example of Mary playing an active role in the New Testament.

Because Mary is so perfect in popular Catholic theology in Latin America -- perpetually a virgin, although a mother; blameless, even sinless -- Lozano said she becomes an impossible standard of womanhood. Nonetheless, many men look for this standard in the mother of their children.

On the other hand, Lozano noted, Mary's opposite -- the wanton harlot -- is what many men tend to look for in sex partners. Being forced to choose between the two stereotypes can be deadly for women.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of truth in this. There is discussion on it on the Catholic singles sites all the time. I wouldn't go as far as the wanton harlot, but there is only one of Mary just as there is only one of Christ - and don't forget that she is still a Jewish mother who was not afraid to go to her son, who is God, and tell him to "do something." Yes, she submitted to God's will in the ultimate example of humility and acceptance, and was sinless - that doesn't mean she was meek and quiet.

11 posted on 08/01/2009 2:20:48 PM PDT by Desdemona (True Christianity requires open hearts and open minds - not blind hatred.)
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To: mel
I am a Baptist, I am really inspired by Our Lady of Guadolupe or however spell it

Then you will be truly inspired by the events that accompanied her appearance in Mexico. Here's the link.

12 posted on 08/01/2009 2:21:13 PM PDT by NYer ("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer
As a Baptist, I appreciate Mary. I appreciate her husband, Joseph, who kept her a virgin UNTIL after she gave birth to Jesus. I appreciate her son James, Jesus' brother, as well as the other children she bore. I appreciate The Apostle John who took care of her in Ephesus.

I do not appreciate those who call her such idolatrous titles as "The Queen of Heaven," "The Queen of the Angels," "The Perpetual Virgin," etc. Such modes of deification do not advance Christianity. Rather, they infuse Christianity with an obscene paganism that dilutes the true gospel, sometimes beyond recognition.

13 posted on 08/01/2009 2:23:23 PM PDT by Guyin4Os (My name says Guyin40s but now I have an exotic, daring, new nickname..... Guyin50s)
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To: cranked

Mary is not a graven image, but a person—a person to whom Luke devotes two chapters of his gospel.


14 posted on 08/01/2009 2:24:35 PM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE homo)
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To: mel
Our Catholic kids will be going to a Baptist Vacation Bible School next week. We notice the lack of discussion and veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary (compared to our standards), but otherwise the VBS is great with excellent moral leadership.

Down at the bottom of my profile page is a link to a great kids' cartoon called "Juan Diego, Messenger of Guadalupe".

15 posted on 08/01/2009 2:27:58 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
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To: NYer

Baptists don’t put much emphasis on Mary because Scripture doesn’t.

Apart from the birth story, here is what we have:

Mat 2:11/14 And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh...And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt

Mat 2:20/21 saying, “Rise, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the child’s life are dead.” And he rose and took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel.

Mat 12:46/48 While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him...But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”

Mat 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

Mar 3:31-35 And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you.” And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! “Whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

Mar 6:3 “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.

Luk 2:48/51 And when his parents saw him, they were astonished. And his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been searching for you in great distress.”...And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart.

Luk 8:19-21 Then his mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd. And he was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you.” But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”

Luk 11.27-28 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

Jon 2.1-5 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there...When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”...His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

Jhn 2:12 After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brothers and his disciples, and they stayed there for a few days.

Jhn 6:42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’ ?”

Jhn 19:25-27 but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

Act 1:14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.


It is hard to take that and get anything that would put great emphasis on Mary. A good woman? Yes. Worthy of particular admiration and veneration? Well...notice the emphasis Jesus puts on her:

“As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”


16 posted on 08/01/2009 2:28:54 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Guyin4Os

You don’t know that she bore other children. as for the titles, one you don’t mention is “Mother of God,” or in Greek, theotokos. “Bearer of God” to the world. By refusing to accept Mary, Protestant risk lapsing into the Arianism to which so many of them are prone, a doctrine that denies true divinity to Our Lord.


17 posted on 08/01/2009 2:29:57 PM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE homo)
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To: Mr Rogers

As if that excluded Mary, the first to hear the Word.


18 posted on 08/01/2009 2:31:18 PM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE homo)
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To: Guyin4Os

I call her “The Queen of Heaven,” “The Queen of the Angels,” “The Perpetual Virgin,” etc., but am a Christian and do not deify her nor consider myself a “pagan”, an “idolator”, a promoter of “false gospel”, or guilty of “obscenity”. I hope that ruins your day.


19 posted on 08/01/2009 2:32:54 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
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To: x_plus_one
Ignoring the immaculate conception of Mary leads to ignoring the immaculate conception of Jesus....Just Saying...

Scriptural reference, please.

20 posted on 08/01/2009 2:32:54 PM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (You're either in or in the way.)
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To: SkyDancer

Ann, the mother of Mary conceived immaculately. This is is common knowledge and is taught by Anglican, ORthodox, Catholic and more traditions.


21 posted on 08/01/2009 2:41:04 PM PDT by x_plus_one (Only ACORN could put a long legged mac daddy, quasi-muslim, communist freak into the white house...)
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To: Colonel_Flagg

My faith in Jesus Christ as my savior requires no belief about Mary’s conception or Mary’s perpetual virginity (or lack thereof), any more than it requires a belief that the earth is 6000 years old. Salvation has no such requirements.


22 posted on 08/01/2009 2:41:52 PM PDT by TexasAg
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To: mel

Oh yes, I saw that when Mrs. Clinton was told that God painting, I did more research on Guadalupe and found that web site. Really amazing and inspiring


23 posted on 08/01/2009 2:49:14 PM PDT by mel
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To: x_plus_one

So how far back does one go?


24 posted on 08/01/2009 2:50:20 PM PDT by SkyDancer ('Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..' ~ Thomas Jefferson)
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To: steve86
It is logically impossible for someone to be the "Queen of Heaven" (God, being the King of heaven) and not be deity. Whether you believe it or not, you have deified her.

And no, it doesn't "ruin my day" to think that there are Christians who have allowed paganism to seep into their faith. But it does give cause for sadness.

25 posted on 08/01/2009 2:50:20 PM PDT by Guyin4Os (My name says Guyin40s but now I have an exotic, daring, new nickname..... Guyin50s)
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To: Guyin4Os
The Queen of Heaven, the mother of Jesus, was conceived immaculately also. Mary, was transported to heaven just after her death (in scripture). She is the enemy of Satan.

The Baptist tradition has taken the King James version of the new and old testaments to be the only information extant on the existence of Mary and Jesus.

Knowledge about the life and death of Mary and Jesus has also been handed down in Catholic history/tradition. Jesus is King of Heaven. Mary is the Queen Mother at his right hand.

26 posted on 08/01/2009 2:52:03 PM PDT by x_plus_one (Only ACORN could put a long legged mac daddy, quasi-muslim, communist freak into the white house...)
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To: Mr Rogers

“Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

.
Jesus underscored the virtue and need of our holiness without taking any honors away from His Mother. He did that because He wanted to emphasisze that He came on Earth for us and not just His Mother.


27 posted on 08/01/2009 2:57:37 PM PDT by 353FMG
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To: NYer

I don’t think Baptists ignore Mary. They just don’t deify her. I’m not sure exactly what lessons he thinks we’re missing. The article does not say, really.


28 posted on 08/01/2009 2:59:00 PM PDT by Brilliant
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To: devane617

Baptists believe what they want.


29 posted on 08/01/2009 3:01:21 PM PDT by AceMineral (Offically unapproved of since 1973)
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To: mel

Im Baptist. But I do notice that people who believe that Mary popped down into a cave near Mexico City to talk with Juan Diego, are often the same ones scoffing at the Mormons saying Jesus Christ popped down here with the indians.


30 posted on 08/01/2009 3:04:06 PM PDT by DesertRhino (Dogs earn the title of "man's best friend", Muslims hate dogs,,add that up.)
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To: NYer

The scriptures tell us: “For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”

Notice it doesn’t say “except for Mary.”

The existence of the Christ who is a wholly Divine member of the Godhead does not require a mother born of a virgin... logically or structurally. Mary’s holiness did not come from a sinless life or an immaculate conception but from the same place ours does: through a belief in the Godhead and faith in the redemptive work of the God. The source of her holiness was not of herself, but was imputed unto her via Christ.

As for the supposed double standard of womens’ purity and sexuality, where’s the rub? A chaste woman who remains pure and modest before the world is not defiled in one iota by a wanton and expressive marriage bed. How else does a man and woman become “one flesh?”


31 posted on 08/01/2009 3:06:58 PM PDT by Sparticus (Libs, they're so open minded that their brains leaked out.)
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To: Sparticus
Whoops! Spellchecker madness!

structurally = scripturally

32 posted on 08/01/2009 3:08:32 PM PDT by Sparticus (Libs, they're so open minded that their brains leaked out.)
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To: NYer

Baptists focus on the important things like
Christ and his redemption of the world.

His mother was Mary. She did a great and wonderful thing but she wasn’t perfect, didn’t remain a virgin and doesn’t have anything to do with what God and Christ do for us in the present tense.


33 posted on 08/01/2009 3:11:41 PM PDT by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: Guyin4Os
It is logically impossible for someone to be the "Queen of Heaven" (God, being the King of heaven) and not be deity.

No, you have fallen victim to a fallacy:

God is a deity and is a king
Mary is a queen.
Therefore, Mary must be a deity.

That is fallacious.

Mary is the Queen of Heaven and Earth without being a deity and there is no logical necessity that she must be.

34 posted on 08/01/2009 3:15:25 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
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To: Mr Rogers
“As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

Luke's Gospel says:

46
And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord,
47
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48
for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;

35 posted on 08/01/2009 3:15:58 PM PDT by NYer ("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: swmobuffalo
doesn’t have anything to do with what God and Christ do for us in the present tense.

I agree: she doesn't do anything for you in the present tense because you reject her graces.

36 posted on 08/01/2009 3:17:52 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
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To: steve86
>I call her “The Queen of Heaven,” ... but am a Christian and do not deify her nor consider myself a “pagan” ...

But all of us can
slip into bad practices
that need correction:

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things.
And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship
at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.
But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant
with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all
who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

Revelation 22:8-9 (NIV)

37 posted on 08/01/2009 3:18:00 PM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: SkyDancer
It need go back no further than St. Anne.

God was intervening in history to enter the world. He prepared the Virgin Mary to be the new Ark of the Covenant, so that he would have a fitting home for nine months, and a fit mother to raise him. Not through any virtue of her own, but by God's grace.

The Virgin's immaculate conception is not the flip side of Original Sin. It did not need to be inherited.

38 posted on 08/01/2009 3:22:10 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Mr Rogers
"Baptists don’t put much emphasis on Mary because Scripture doesn’t."

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.

Luke 1:28 "And coming to her, he said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you." The Greek kecharitomene means favored by grace, graced. Its tense suggests a permanent state of being "highly favored," thus full of grace. Charity, the divine love within us, comes from the same root. God is infinite Goodness, infinite Love. Mary is perfect created goodness, filled to the limit of her finite being with grace or charity.

Blessed art thou among women

Luke 1:41-42a "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women..."

Luke 1:48 "For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed."

Among all women is a way to say the highest/greatest etc. of a group in Semitic languages (these words would likely have been spoken in Aramaic). Mary is being called the greatest of all women, greater than Ruth, greater than Sarah, greater than EVE! Since Eve was created immaculate (without original sin), Mary must have been conceived immaculate. And, although Eve fell into sin by her own free will, Mary must have corresponded to God's grace and remained sinless. She could not otherwise be greater than Eve. Thus, as the Fathers of the Church unanimously assert, Mary is the New Eve who restores womanhood to God's original intention and cooperates with the New Adam, her Son, for the Redemption of the world.

Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus

Luke 1:42b "and blessed is the fruit of your womb."

Jesus is Mary's fruit. Good fruit does not come from anything but a good tree (Mt. 7:17-18)! The all-holy Son of God could not be the fruit of any other tree than the Immaculate Virgin.

Holy Mary, Mother of God

Luke 1:43 "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Kyrios is the Greek word used by the Jews in the Septuagint Bible (Greek translation) for Yhwh, the Divine Name of God. In her greeting of Mary, Elizabeth is saying: "How is it that the mother of my God should come to me." Against the heresies of the 4th and 5th centuries which tried to split the Person of Jesus into two, divine and human, denying one or the other, the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD proclaimed Mary Theotokos (God-bearer, i.e. mother of God). Jesus is a single Person, a Divine Person, the 2nd Person of the Most Holy Trinity. To be mother of the Person Jesus is to be mother of a Person who is God. Mary's title protects this truth against errors which emphasize or deny, either the divinity or humanity of the Lord.

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Luke 2:35 "...and you yourself a sword will pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

John 2:5 "His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."

Mary sees a need and appeals to Her Son to satisfy it. He does. We turn to Mary to ask her to intercede with her Son in our daily spiritual and material needs, but especially at the hour of our death. At that moment our salvation hangs in the balance as the devil makes his final foray to deter us from the path to God (Rev. 2:10). It is not surprising, therefore, that both the Hail Mary and the Our Father conclude with an appeal to be delivered from the evil one.

39 posted on 08/01/2009 3:23:02 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: RobbyS

Well, scripture says, “Joseph...took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son.”

It says, “And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths...”

And it says, “And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you.” And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! “Whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

and, ““Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.”

If you want to claim Jesus was an only child, it seems the burden of proof is on you. And FWIW, both Greek and Aramaic had words for cousins or kinfolk.


40 posted on 08/01/2009 3:30:02 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: AnAmericanMother

Ok, but as I understand it, it’s all Catholic theology, not Protestant ... the history of Catholic theology is quite interesting plus its origins of how the church came about.


41 posted on 08/01/2009 3:33:00 PM PDT by SkyDancer ('Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not..' ~ Thomas Jefferson)
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To: swmobuffalo
She did a great and wonderful thing but she wasn’t perfect, didn’t remain a virgin and doesn’t have anything to do with what God and Christ do for us in the present tense.

How do you know she didn't remain a virgin? Were you there?

42 posted on 08/01/2009 3:35:15 PM PDT by NYer ("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: SkyDancer
Well, that depends. Are Lutherans and Episcopalians (the old kind, not the modern apostates) protestant, or not?

Calvin, Luther and Zwingli all believed in Mary's perpetual virginity and her Immaculate Conception. So did many of the early Anglicans.

43 posted on 08/01/2009 3:47:11 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Mr Rogers; NYer
Any reason they couldn't be St. Joseph's children from a previous marriage? He was traditionally much older than the Virgin Mary, and predeceased both Jesus and Mary.

The "here are my mother and brothers" is a figure of speech, and is no more to be taken literally than, as C.S. Lewis said, when St. Paul said we were to be as doves he wanted us to lay eggs.

44 posted on 08/01/2009 3:49:47 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Mr Rogers

“As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

Ah, but what if Jesus was saying that a better understanding of Mary’s blessedness is that she had learned the word of God and when He asked something of her, she obeyed willingly? To love God’s word and obey it is blessedness— and Mary did that beautifully.


45 posted on 08/01/2009 3:53:27 PM PDT by Melian ("An unexamined life is not worth living." ~Socrates)
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To: Sparticus
The scriptures tell us: “For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” Notice it doesn’t say “except for Mary.”

Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the Jesus, one may argue that an exception for Mary can also be made.

46 posted on 08/01/2009 3:53:30 PM PDT by NYer ("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: Mr Rogers
Two other points - 'firstborn' is a ceremonial status that does not imply successive children.

And 'until' in the KJV does not necessarily imply that the negative eventually happened. When it says that "Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death," it means that he never saw him again, not that he showed up the day he died.

47 posted on 08/01/2009 3:59:41 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Mr Rogers; RobbyS; AnAmericanMother
If you want to claim Jesus was an only child, it seems the burden of proof is on you. And FWIW, both Greek and Aramaic had words for cousins or kinfolk.

References please.

Neither Hebrew nor Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ and his disciples) had a special word meaning "cousin," speakers of those languages could use either the word for "brother" or a circumlocution, such as "the son of my uncle." But circumlocutions are clumsy, so the Jews often used "brother."

The writers of the New Testament were brought up using the Aramaic equivalent of "brothers" to mean both cousins and sons of the same father—plus other relatives and even non-relatives. When they wrote in Greek, they did the same thing the translators of the Septuagint did. (The Septuagint was the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible; it was translated by Hellenistic Jews a century or two before Christ’s birth and was the version of the Bible from which most of the Old Testament quotations found in the New Testament are taken.) In the Septuagint the Hebrew word that includes both brothers and cousins was translated as adelphos, which in Greek usually has the narrow meaning that the English "brother" has. Unlike Hebrew or Aramaic, Greek has a separate word for cousin, anepsios, but the translators of the Septuagint used adelphos, even for true cousins.

48 posted on 08/01/2009 4:01:35 PM PDT by NYer ("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: Natural Law

“Its tense suggests a permanent state of being “highly favored,”

Your Greek is in error. What the tense suggests is that the act finished in the past.

“Mary is being called the greatest of all women, greater than Ruth, greater than Sarah, greater than EVE! Since Eve was created immaculate (without original sin), Mary must have been conceived immaculate. And, although Eve fell into sin by her own free will, Mary must have corresponded to God’s grace and remained sinless. She could not otherwise be greater than Eve.”

Actually, she is being called “most blessed’. Not most perfect or faultless, or most anything else, but most blessed [divinely or supremely favored; or favored of God]. Add in the angel’s greeting (”Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”), and you get that she has received the greatest favor [”something done or granted out of goodwill, rather than from justice or for remuneration; a kind act”] any woman ever received from God. And since she is about to give birth to God in the flesh, I heartily agree.

However, it does not suggest she was born sinless or lived sinless. The focus is on what God is doing for her - HIS favor - not her supposed perfection. The same word is used in Mark 8 “They also had a few small fish; and after He had blessed them, He ordered these to be served as well.” God (Jesus) blessed the fish. He did not proclaim them sinless fish, or the most holy of fish ever. God used the fish for His purpose, just as He did Mary.

And at the hour of my death, I expect to rejoice, knowing

“”All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” - John 6


49 posted on 08/01/2009 4:03:51 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: NYer

New Testament:

Cousin

Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

Luk 1:58 And her neighbours and her cousins heard how the Lord had shewed great mercy upon her; and they rejoiced with her.

Col 4:10 Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and {also} Barnabas’s cousin Mark (about whom you received instructions; if he comes to you, welcome him);

Kin

Mar 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

Luk 2:44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day’s journey; and they sought him among [their] kinsfolk and acquaintance.

Luk 14:12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor [thy] rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.

Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death.

Jhn 18:26 One of the servants of the high priest, being [his] kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him?

Act 10:24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Rom 16:11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the [household] of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.

Rom 16:21 Timotheus my workfellow, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen, salute you.

For the Aramaic, find an online Aramaic lexicon and search for cousin. I found one a while back, but don’t feel like researching it again.

As you can see, the NT writers did know how to refer to someone as cousin or kin, instead of brother.


50 posted on 08/01/2009 4:11:02 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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