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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy; raynearhood
I’m saying that there is no reason to believe that Israel will disappear in a blaze of Islamic thermonuclear glory because He will keep his promise and protect them from allowing it to happen.

But where is the unquestionable biblical evidence that the modern secular nation of Israel is that fulfillment of prophecy? From the standpoint of "making sense" there is none. One must first adopt certain presuppositions about "Israel" in order to follow your conclusions.

I will offer two reasons here for the defects in your claims and elaborate on them in another post:. 1) the "nation of Israel" as defined in Bible in no measurable way matches the modern secular state of Israel, 2) it ignores all that the NT teaches about God's holy nation.

11 posted on 08/16/2009 8:50:58 AM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54; Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Lee N. Field; raynearhood
I’m saying that there is no reason to believe that Israel will disappear in a blaze of Islamic thermonuclear glory because He will keep his promise and protect them from allowing it to happen.

So, what happened to God's "promise to protect Israel" between 70AD and 1948AD?

13 posted on 08/16/2009 1:36:11 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("I always longed for repose and quiet" - John Calvin)
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To: topcat54

You said.....

But where is the unquestionable biblical evidence that the modern secular nation of Israel is that fulfillment of prophecy? From the standpoint of “making sense” there is none.

Hmm... I think to come up with the idea that the modern state of Israel is not a fulfillment of Bible prophecy, there are some things that would have to be completely ignored, like....

Israel’s warning given by God that they were going to be scattered among the nations. (Ezekiel 6:8, 36:17-19)
That happened historically as I stated in my piece. But Ezekiel goes on to say....

Ezekiel 36:24
24 “ ‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.

That happened May 14th, 1948. A nation is born when it is sovereign. Even if it was a work in progress for years, it doesn’t matter; the end result does. They were never a nation since the Babylonians took over, and they did not have control over Jerusalem since Titus and his Roman Generals destroyed it in A.D. 70. But not only were they not in control of their own land, they endured hardships unlike any other people, which matches precisely what Ezekiel said in...

Ezekiel 36:20-21
20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ 21 I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

But aside from what I just stated, Jesus Christ himself implied Israel. When the disciples asked Him when would be the sign of his return, he talked about the fig tree. The fig tree he mentioned was OT code for Israel. There are too many matches. If there weren’t, he would have had to explain it. As people who knew the scriptures, they were supposed to have known.

You also have to understand that practicing Jews are still within an Old Testament mentality. Regardless of whether or not they are, when God makes a promise, he makes sure it’s lasting. The nation of Israel is, as you said, a secular nation, but one of the mysteries of Bible prophecy is that it will not remain a secular state forever. The heat is mounting up against it. From a nation that was once very Israel friendly, that is diminishing. Many Americans would rather have Israel fall off the face of the earth. It does show that God is in control and that just by their being alive, shows that God preserved them.

Israel coming back into their land is one of the most amazing things on the face of this earth. Since they came back, they have discovered many archaeological artifacts, remnants, as well as ancient manuscripts from the ancient Biblical era.

That is no accident. Also, when you consider the alignment of world events in light of Israel’s rebirth, that right there was a red flag as well.

When God says something, he says it in a broad, big picture perspective. When you look at the past details which spanned for thousands of years, and put them together now, then you can see the pieces begin to come together. Since a thousand years is like a day to the Lord (2 Peter 3:8), it is easy for us to say that this didn’t happen, or this won’t happen.

To illustrate my point, take Ezekiel 36:24-26

24 “ ‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

In the span of three verses it says what it says. But only verse 24 has been fulfilled, and verses 25-26 are yet to be fulfilled. God has a broad, big picture mentality when he revealed future events to the prophets in the past.


15 posted on 08/16/2009 1:54:09 PM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: topcat54; Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
But where is the unquestionable biblical evidence that the modern secular nation of Israel is that fulfillment of prophecy?

All evidence is questionable as you have shown. Still, it is good that the debate continues because the future of Israel will be a tie breaker on this issue. Keep watching.

I will offer two reasons here for the defects in your claims and elaborate on them in another post:. 1) the "nation of Israel" as defined in Bible in no measurable way matches the modern secular state of Israel, 2) it ignores all that the NT teaches about God's holy nation.

The NT teaches that blindness in part happens to Israel. This may mean that Israel cannot see Christ until the fullness of the gentiles comes. This is demonstrated by modern day Israel; evidence that it is the same Israel spoken of in Romans 11.

17 posted on 08/16/2009 4:49:21 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy; raynearhood
Biblical Israel vs. Modern Israel

Here are some characteristics of Biblical Israel that modern Israel does not share. The absence of these characteristics proves that modern Israel is in no sense related to Biblical Israel, therefore it cannot be a fulfillment of any biblical prophecies.

  1. Biblical Israel was established as part of the covenant made with Abraham and the promises made with the Seed, Jesus Christ. (Gen. 12:7; 13:15; 24:7; Gal. 3:16)
  2. Inclusion in Biblical Israel was by vow and obedience to God’s covenant, not strictly by lineage. (Gen. 17:23; Lev. 18:26; Rom. 2:28,29; 9:6,7)
  3. Biblical Israel was identified as a nation when they corporately vowed to abide by the law of God as given through Moses. (Exo. 19:8)
  4. Disobedience to the law of God was reason for individual excommunication from the nation of Israel, and temporal corporate punishment. (Exo. 12:15; Lev. 7:27; Lev. 18:29; Deut. 28:15)
  5. Biblical Israel was governed by God-ordained representatives in the church (the priesthood with respect to the ceremonial) and the state (elders, judges, and kings with respect to the civil) as a single and unique kingdom under God. (Lev. 13:2; Deut. 17:9; 19:12; 21:19)
  6. The judges of Biblical Israel was chosen directly by God. (Luke 22:30; James 1:1)
  7. Biblical Israel could have its nationhood status revoked through disobedience. (Matt. 21:43; John 11:48)
  8. The older covenant was never intended by God to be permanent, but was seen as giving way to a new covenant. (Jer. 31:31; Matt. 26:28; Heb. 8:13; 9:15; 12:24)
  9. For Biblical Israel the law was seen as a tutor to Christ, not as a means of salvation. (Matt. 23:23; Luke 24:44; Rom. 3:20; Gal. 3:24)
  10. Faith and repentance always preceded Biblical Israel’s physical restoration and blessing. (1 Kings 8:47,48; Ezra 1:5; Jer. 27:22)
  11. Restoration is clearly seen as an act of divine intervention, even by the nations. (Ezra 1:1; Ezekiel 37:4)
  12. Faithfulness to God in our day is measured by a proper relationship to the new covenant, not to rabbinic traditions. (Matt. 5:20; 16:6; Luke 1:72; Rom. 11:27; 2 Cor. 3:6)

27 posted on 08/17/2009 4:49:15 PM PDT by topcat54 (Don't believe in a pre-anything rapture? Join "Naysayers for Jesus")
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To: topcat54
Now what was that parable that Christ said to learn?
39 posted on 08/21/2009 12:45:22 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Bama and Company are reenacting the Pharaoh as told by Moses in Genesis!!!!!)
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