Replies

You wrote:

“You forget your lies which is the problem with being a liar.”

I never lied. And calling someone here is a good way to get in trouble. I suggest you prove your claims rather than just make them.

“Your Obfuscation fails you.”

(sigh) Obfuscation?

In post 51, you wrote: “This is laid the groundwork for the resentment that long simmered against the Latin church.”

So you started off with

1) posting an unsubstantiated claim
2) then called it a plausible scenario when you could find no evidence at all for it
3) then denied you posted the claim in the first place and claimed it belonged to the sect in question
4) then said it is a “supposition based on the fact”
5) now it “was a re-wording of the statement the Moravians themselves make”
6) and now you’re claiming I am indulging in Obfuscation?

“I mentioned Sts. Cyril and Methodius in the context of showing the eastern origins of Moravian Christianity.”

What you did was post this: “In post 51, you wrote: “This is laid the groundwork for the resentment that long simmered against the Latin church.”

And then you denied posting that. And so on. And so on.

“I also posted from 2 non-Orthodox Christian sources - The Moravian Protestant Church’s web site and an Anglican web site that refute your false charge that the Moravians do not have Orthodox Christian roots and that any claim that they did was started by the newly formed Czech Orthodox Church as a claim to legitimacy.”

1) You are conflating many things into one. Perhaps you are desperate.
2) I pointed out the missionaries to Moravians - both Sts. Cyril and Methodious (and the ones there before them) were Catholics.
3) They were not Orthodox Church members because no such Church existed. This was BEFORE 1054.
4) Their missionary efforts were approved of by the pope.

Those are the facts. Thus, the medieval Moravians have no Orthodox roots, but Catholic ones. The modern Moravians - and that’s called the Moravian Church - have EXACTLY zero Eastern or Orthodox roots. Irrefutable.

“This is the false charge of yours I refuted from your statement at post # 30 where you wrote: Neither the Moravians, nor the Hussites nor Herrnhuter had Orthodox roots. That is a relatively recent revisionist idea put forward by some Orthodox - especially the Czech Orthodox Church which is deperately trying to create a history since it practically lacks one.”

And that statement is absolutely true. Neither the Moravian Church, nor the Hussites nor the Herrnhuter have and Orthodox roots. Zero. The first missionaries were Catholics. The second missionaries were Catholic. The Hussites were an indigenous heretical and schismatic group with only Catholic roots and the Moravian Church came even later in the 18th century. All true. All irrefutable. End of story.

“Unless you will now claim the American Moravians and the Anglicans are in cahoots with the Czech Orthodox.”

Nope. Just none of those groups proved this statement: “In post 51, you wrote: “This is laid the groundwork for the resentment that long simmered against the Latin church.” You cited several things and none of them actually made the claim that you made...and then denied...and then claimed someone else made...but really you deduced it from someone else...etc., etc., etc.

Regarding Sts. Cyril and Methodious - I also stated that you were correct that Sts. Cyril and Methodious were evangelists of a united universal (Catholic is Greek for universal) church.

But they were emissaries of the emperor at Constantinople - of eastern Rome.

And the rite they imparted on the Moravians was not the Latin one. I also posted that at first Rome went along with that but within a generation of the deaths of the saints the Latin Church suppressed the Moravian Greek rite inspired rite.

Here is the part which you lied about (or to be fair to you you think this is the case and are in error) in your claim that the Orthodox Czech church made up:

That the Moravian Protestants are the end result of a long process originating from the Greek eastern church tradition.

I produced the Moravians own source indicating that they make this claim themselves and which I re-worded (where you are being a pettifog about) “This is laid the groundwork for the resentment that long simmered against the Latin church.”

And then I posted an Anglican statement which also states that the Moravians fought to return to the 'eastern Greek rite'.

You know as well as I do that orthodox and catholic apply to the church in the west and east until the Great Schism and what is meant is the Greek tradition/rite vs the Latin tradition/rite.

The rest is pettifoggery and obfuscation on your part.

I repeat, the Moravians THEMSELVES hold the view their origins like in the Greek Eastern Christianity not in the Latin Western Christianity. The Moravians themselves say that the Latin forced out this eastern tradition and this created resentments.

It is their claim - Protestants that they are - that their movement had their foundations in the resistance to Latin Rite Christianity and the restoration of Eastern rite Christianity which over time became the foundation of their church.

You placed a false charge against the Czech Orthodox Church and I called you out on it.

At # 30 you wrote (and I am calling you out on this one):

Neither the Moravians, nor the Hussites nor Herrnhuter had Orthodox roots. That is a relatively recent revisionist idea put forward by some Orthodox - especially the Czech Orthodox Church which is deperately trying to create a history since it practically lacks one.

Jerome of Prague is often held up as if he were a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy - yet his “conversion” went unnoted by everyone in his day including by Jerome himself. Not even his enemies, such as John-Jerome of Prague, ever mentioned it.

30 posted on August 11, 2009 9:48:11 PM EDT by vladimir998

The first part is your opinion Neither the Moravians, nor the Hussites nor Herrnhuter had Orthodox roots. and you can keep it but the second part of your statement is an ACCUSATION That is a relatively recent revisionist idea put forward by some Orthodox - especially the Czech Orthodox Church which is deperately trying to create a history since it practically lacks one.

Since I posted a Moravian Protestant source that highlights the history of the Moravians and the evangelism to them from the eastern rite Greeks AND an Anglican source which also makes the same claim do you take back your charge that this is a recent claim originating by the Czech Orthodox to shore up their church since such claims are not coming from the Czech Orthodox?????

I have to call you out on that and am waiting, 'doc'.