Posted on 08/15/2009 6:00:50 AM PDT by Kolokotronis
Was He God at the Incarnation?
But according to Nestorius that never happened. There was merely Christ as two persons, one human and one divine.
The Trinity has always been...
Then please explain why not a SINGLE Protestant reformer EVER embraced Nestorianism.
Was Mary the Mother of God before the Incarnation???
What is it that you reject?:
1. That she is His mother.
or
2. That He is God.
There really isn't another choice.
I'm not familiar with that accusation...And who knows if the accusation is true???
And even if it is, it is not nearly as 'far out' as the claim that Mary is the sole provider of all grace that flows to the faithful from God...
Interesting that you embrace a heresy without even knowing what it is.
See #52.
You never answer the questions directly...All it takes is a yes or no...
No, the Blessed Virgin Mary IS NOT eternal.
Thankyou...That was my whole point...
What? The Catholic Church has NEVER suggested that that Blessed Virgin was eternal; however, to say that she is not the mother of God requires you to embrace heresy because her Son IS eternal.
So did God die on the Cross or did God depart from the flesh as we do when we die???
I'm just trying to get the Catholic perspective on this...
“The part that makes me still Protestant, however, is this question: How do you determine what is valid “holy tradition”?”
Actually, that’s pretty easy, at least back to the second century, the thrid at the latest. Its what The Church has always believed. As an example, let me cite the Divine Liturgy. For all intents and purposes, with a few changes around the edges, the Liturgy I attended this morning is the same one my ancestors attended 1800 years ago, maybe even earlier than that with the Liturgy of St. James. Keeping faithful to the Holy Traditions is one of the main functions of the Laity within The Church. We are the ones who make sure the hierarchs and clergy don’t go astray and its a role we take very, very seriously and are very, very good at.
“In its own way, it says sola Scriptura is false.”
I don’t see how it can be read another way, but now that you have mentioned it, when I get a chance, I’ll run the verse through the Ante-Nicene, Nicene & Post-Nicene Fathers and see what pops up.
Do you belong to some sort of Nestorian subsect which also denies the Resurrection and the Ascension?
And 2Peter 3:16 emphatically states that sola scriptura is destructive.
I may have missed a verse somewhere, but here are the verses I could find on Jesus, as an adult, speaking to or referencing Mary...
The first 3 are different accounts of the same event. While I assume Jesus did eventually speak to his mother and brothers, he certainly didn’t jump up and say, “The Theotokos, she who is higher than the Cherubim, is here? Show her in, with reverence!”
Instead, he says, ““Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” - Matt 12
31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him. 32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.” 33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” - Mark 3
19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” - Luke 8
Although it doesn’t directly address Mary, this could be a passing reference.
But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.” — Matt 13
One woman sought to give honor to Mary:
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” — Luke 11
Rather than saying, “Indeed, Blessed is She, the Theotokos, the unshakable hope, ever vigilant in intercession and protection, Mother of life!”, Jesus replies, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” (NASB)
There is the Wedding at Cana:
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.
3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”
6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.”...You have kept the good wine until now!”...12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days. — John 2
Note, as everywhere else recorded in scripture, he calls her “Woman”. Not Mother, but Woman. My Mom would have been furious if I had called her that!
Barnes, in his commentary, if far kinder than I would be in discussing this passage:
“What have I to do with thee? This expression is sometimes used to denote indignation or contempt. See Judges 11:12; 2 Samuel 16; 1 Kings 17:18. But it is not probable that it denoted either in this place; if it did, it was a mild reproof of Mary for attempting to control or direct him in his power of working miracles. Most of the ancients supposed this to be the intention of Jesus. The words sound to us harsh, but they might have been spoken in a tender manner, and not have been intended as a reproof. It is clear that he did not intend to refuse to provide wine, but only to delay it a little; and the design was, therefore, to compose the anxiety of Mary, and to prevent her being solicitous about it. It may, then, be thus expressed:
“My mother, be not anxious. To you and to me this should not be a matter of solicitude. The proper time of my interfering has not yet come. When that is come I will furnish a supply, and in the meantime neither you nor I should be solicitous.”
Thus understood, it is so far from being a harsh reproof, that it was a mild exhortation for her to dismiss her fears and to put proper trust in him...
Perhaps the wine was not yet entirely exhausted. The wine had begun to fail, but he would not work a miracle until it was entirely gone, that the miracle might be free from all possibility of suspicion. It does not mean that the proper time for his working a miracle, or entering on his public work had not come, but that the proper time for his interposing there had not arrived.
Verse 5. His mother saith, &c. It is evident from this verse that his mother did not understand what he had said as a harsh reproof and repulse, but as an indication of his willingness at the proper time to furnish wine. In all this transaction he evinced the appropriate feelings of a son toward a mother.
At a minimum, we can certainly say that Jesus didn’t snap to and reply, “Whatever you say, for you are my Mother...”
And finally, we have the scene at the cross:
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. — John 19
Although he cares for her, even in his agony, he doesn’t exactly exalt her, does he.
Now, in all of acts, we find: “All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.”
No further mention of her is found in the Scripture, unless I missed it - and I might have, I didn’t do an exhaustive search.
Not a single reference to praying to her, asking her to intercede, or doing anything special for us, or being our mother, etc.
Zero, Nada, Zilch.
Honoring our father and mother does not require we pretend they were something they were not. Mary was blessed by God. But we are to concern ourselves with obeying God, not giving special place to Mary, when neither Jesus, the Apostles or Scripture does so.
Nothing negating or condemning those things, that's for sure.
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