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The Dormition of our Most Holy Lady the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America ^

Posted on 08/15/2009 6:00:50 AM PDT by Kolokotronis

Synaxarion:

Concerning the Dormition of the Theotokos, this is what the Church has received from ancient times from the tradition of the Fathers. When the time drew nigh that our Savior was well-pleased to take His Mother to Himself, He declared unto her through an Angel that three days hence, He would translate her from this temporal life to eternity and bliss. On hearing this, she went up with haste to the Mount of Olives, where she prayed continuously. Giving thanks to God, she returned to her house and prepared whatever was necessary for her burial. While these things were taking place, clouds caught up the Apostles from the ends of the earth, where each one happened to be preaching, and brought them at once to the house of the Mother of God, who informed them of the cause of their sudden gathering. As a mother, she consoled them in their affliction as was meet, and then raised her hands to Heaven and prayed for the peace of the world. She blessed the Apostles, and, reclining upon her bed with seemliness, gave up her all-holy spirit into the hands of her Son and God. With reverence and many lights, and chanting burial hymns, the Apostles took up that God-receiving body and brought it to the sepulchre, while the Angels from Heaven chanted with them, and sent forth her who is higher than the Cherubim. But one Jew, moved by malice, audaciously stretched forth his hand upon the bed and immediately received from divine judgment the wages of his audacity. Those daring hands were severed by an invisible blow. But when he repented and asked forgiveness, his hands were restored. When they had reached the place called Gethsemane, they buried there with honor the all-immaculate body of the Theotokos, which was the source of Life. But on the third day after the burial, when they were eating together, and raised up the artos (bread) in Jesus' Name, as was their custom, the Theotokos appeared in the air, saying "Rejoice" to them. From this they learned concerning the bodily translation of the Theotokos into the Heavens.

These things has the Church received from the traditions of the Fathers, who have composed many hymns out of reverence, to the glory of the Mother of our God.

Apolytikion in the First Tone

In birth, you preserved your virginity; in death, you did not abandon the world, O Theotokos. As mother of life, you departed to the source of life, delivering our souls from death by your intercessions.

Kontakion in the Second Tone

Neither the grave nor death could contain the Theotokos, the unshakable hope, ever vigilant in intercession and protection. As Mother of life, He who dwelt in the ever-virginal womb transposed her to life.



TOPICS: Catholic; Orthodox Christian; Theology; Worship
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1 posted on 08/15/2009 6:00:52 AM PDT by Kolokotronis
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To: crazykatz; JosephW; lambo; MoJoWork_n; newberger; The_Reader_David; jb6; wildandcrazyrussian; ...

Orthodox/Catholic ping


2 posted on 08/15/2009 6:03:14 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

Thanks!


3 posted on 08/15/2009 6:08:20 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Do you like every snake? I like every snake!)
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To: Kolokotronis

Remember that as a kid, this was the Sunday of White vestments in the middle of ordinary time.


4 posted on 08/15/2009 7:14:56 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Kolokotronis

This is quite an event to be left out of the Bible. Don’t see it in Peter, don’t see it in James, none of the apostles spends any appreciable time mentioning Mary.

If this event was true, it would be in the gospels or Acts.


5 posted on 08/15/2009 7:18:13 AM PDT by dartuser ("If you torture the data long enough, it will confess, even to crimes it did not commit")
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To: dartuser

“If this event was true, it would be in the gospels or Acts.”

Why? What does the last verse of +John’s gospel say, d? All sorts of things happened that aren’t in the NT. The fact is, the men who decided what you would read for the NT believed exactly this. The yardstick they used to decide what Christians today would read was Holy Tradition and that’s what this comes from. Put another way, the scriptures don’t define Holy Tradition, Holy Tradition defined the scriptures.

I have always found it surprising that Western Protestant Christians can’t seem to understand what appears so simple to us in The Church.


6 posted on 08/15/2009 7:24:24 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

Christ is in our midst!

Just returned from Liturgy and the Feast. The wife of one of our Arab brothers prepared a bunch of wonderful food.

I brought a 5 gallon keg of home-brewed beer. Catechumen Cream Stout (as requested by our Men’s book club).


7 posted on 08/15/2009 10:34:24 AM PDT by Yudan (Living comes much easier once we admit we're dying.)
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To: Kolokotronis
I have always found it surprising that Western Protestant Christians can’t seem to understand what appears so simple to us in The Church.

When we get to a certain (young) age, we no longer believe in Santa or the Tooth fairy either...No SnowWhite and the Seven Dwarfs either...

Scripture is not based on your tradidion...Your tradition is based on scripture...And obviously the scripture is only a base for YOUR religion...

God gave us doctrine and the way of salvation in the scripture...Many things were left out including Sunday School, school buses, what size light bulbs to use in the auditorium, what color of robes the choir should wear, etc...But what was not left out was doctrine and the way to salvation...

If anything in your tradition takes away from or adds to doctrine, the Kingdoms, salvation, Holiness, etc., it's anathema to God and to me...

When the time drew nigh that our Savior was well-pleased to take His Mother to Himself

Jesus, the 2nd part of the Trinity had no mother...He definitely did NOT take His mother to Himself to create Himself...You can get that philosophy from numerous pagan religions that were around for many years before God in the flesh showed up...I highly suspect that's where your idea of the mother/son relationship showed up because it is certainly not scriptural...Or maybe you guys are just followers of Nimrod...

8 posted on 08/15/2009 5:40:28 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Kolokotronis; dartuser

“The yardstick they used to decide what Christians today would read was Holy Tradition and that’s what this comes from.”

This reads like the spurious gospels floating around.

“While these things were taking place, clouds caught up the Apostles from the ends of the earth, where each one happened to be preaching, and brought them at once to the house of the Mother of God, who informed them of the cause of their sudden gathering. As a mother, she consoled them in their affliction as was meet, and then raised her hands to Heaven and prayed for the peace of the world. She blessed the Apostles, and, reclining upon her bed with seemliness, gave up her all-holy spirit into the hands of her Son and God. With reverence and many lights, and chanting burial hymns, the Apostles took up that God-receiving body and brought it to the sepulchre, while the Angels from Heaven chanted with them, and sent forth her who is higher than the Cherubim.”

I know what John wrote about how not all things were written - but this would dwarf any miracle mentioned in Acts OR the Gospels. Frankly, it would out-do Jesus ascending to Heaven.

It seems in no way critical to how we receive salvation, nor does it encourage bad living...but I probably speak for a lot of Protestants in being skeptical that such an event took place without Scriptural mention.

But as long as you don’t say I need to believe it for salvation - and I doubt you do - then we can allow our differences to be settled by God in His timing.

This would concern me more:

“As mother of life, you departed to the source of life, delivering our souls from death by your intercessions.”

How did Mary deliver our souls from death by her intercessions?


9 posted on 08/15/2009 6:03:29 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Kolokotronis

Thank you. Very clearly stated; I have never heard it said better.


10 posted on 08/15/2009 6:10:18 PM PDT by Judith Anne (Drill here! Drill NOW! Defund the EPA!)
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To: Kolokotronis; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

11 posted on 08/15/2009 6:32:20 PM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: Iscool; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
Jesus, the 2nd part of the Trinity had no mother...
Whatever odd cult you follow, it certainly is divorced from the Christian Faith.
12 posted on 08/15/2009 6:36:06 PM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: Mr Rogers

“This reads like the spurious gospels floating around.”

Not at all. This is part of the original Tradition of the Universal Church, taught from the First Century until now in an unbroken line from the Apostles to their spiritual descendants today. Unlike the spurious false gospels that crop up now and then and have been debunked time and again by the Universal Church, this has always been taught. We have documentation dating absolutely from over 1,500 years ago and that reflected well established teachings from the Apostolic age.


13 posted on 08/15/2009 6:43:02 PM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: Iscool

“Your tradition is based on scripture...”

I, with all due respect, that’s simply ahistorical nonsense. Whether or not you believe the Holy Tradition about the Most Holy Theotokos is completely up to you. But history, I , is history. The men who decided what would make up the canon of the NT believed the report set out in the Synaxarion I quoted just as much as they believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the consecrated bread and wine on the altar tables, or the veneration of icons and relics, or the hierarchial nature of The Church or the “ortho-doxia” of the Divine Liturgy or any of hundreds of other Traditions handed down from Apostolic times. Don’t accept Holy Tradition if that’s what you want, but don’t delude yourself into believing that those Greek bishops who canonized the books of the NT allowed ANYTHING into their canonized scripture which conflicted with what they preserved as Holy Tradition. Nothing like that, I, made the “cut”; most especially don’t think that the NT created Holy Tradition. Its quite the opposite.


14 posted on 08/15/2009 7:25:00 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Iscool
Jesus, the 2nd part of the Trinity had no mother

When you get bored with re-inventing 1600 year old heresies (this particular one is called Nestorianism, and was rejected by the One True Church in AD 431) ...

the Truth, and His Mother, will still be here waiting for you.

15 posted on 08/15/2009 7:40:33 PM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: Mr Rogers

“This reads like the spurious gospels floating around.”

The Synaxarion I posted? You really think so? Mr. R, this isn’t a gospel story; its an exposition of Holy Tradition originally for reading aloud in a monastic setting. The Synaxaria are read at various devotions in churches and are still read in monasteries. The particular Synaxarion I posted was written quite recently.

You are quite right, at least insofar as Orthodoxy goes, that there is no requirement that one believe this to attain theosis. This is called a theologoumennon, a pious belief which may be helpful but certainly is not required. Its not Orthodox Christian dogma. It is dogma for Latins since 1952. I hasten to add, however, that I have never met an Orthodox Christian who does not believe this happened.

“How did Mary deliver our souls from death by her intercessions?”

By praying for God’s mercy on us.


16 posted on 08/15/2009 7:44:05 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Mr Rogers

Well, man...

A lot of tradition was stripped from the faith in the West after the Reformation - due to rebellion against ANYTHING that came out of Rome. (and by the way, Rome and the East were already in all-out schism by the time the Reformation took place, and had been for nearly 500 years).

I am a recent convert to the Orthodox Christian faith. I was a lifelong Protestant, and I had to fit Mary’s special place among the Saints into my head. After all, she was born like you and me...she died like you and me.

So with that said, what makes her special (even Billy Graham has been quoted as saying that Evangelicals don’t give Mary her due)?

In a nutshell, and with my kindergarten-level understanding of Orthodox theology, God chose her. And then He called her. And He had a REALLY unique request.

(Here’s the punch line) She said yes. (Would you have?)

This is one reason why the Church regards her as Foremost among the Saints. She is the Ark of the New Covenant.

Happy Feast!


17 posted on 08/15/2009 7:44:32 PM PDT by Yudan (Living comes much easier once we admit we're dying.)
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To: Mr Rogers

“This reads like the spurious gospels floating around.”

The Synaxarion I posted? You really think so? Mr. R, this isn’t a gospel story; its an exposition of Holy Tradition originally for reading aloud in a monastic setting. The Synaxaria are read at various devotions in churches and are still read in monasteries. The particular Synaxarion I posted was written quite recently.

You are quite right, at least insofar as Orthodoxy goes, that there is no requirement that one believe this to attain theosis. This is called a theologoumennon, a pious belief which may be helpful but certainly is not required. Its not Orthodox Christian dogma. It is dogma for Latins since 1952. I hasten to add, however, that I have never met an Orthodox Christian who does not believe this happened.

BTW, I’d hardly say that the Dormition is more miraculous than the Nativity, the Theophany or the Resurrection. I’ll bet you wouldn’t either, having given it some thought! :)

“How did Mary deliver our souls from death by her intercessions?”

By praying for God’s mercy on us.


18 posted on 08/15/2009 7:49:24 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

One thing I appreciate about the Orthodox church is that it seems to have read Romans 14...

” 5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11for it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”

12So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.”

We obviously don’t see eye to eye on the role of Mary, but God can and will deal with each of us on His schedule. I’d much rather say, “Forgive me, Lord, I was wrong!” than “Forgive me, Lord, I went against what I believed in order to satisfy men...”


19 posted on 08/15/2009 7:59:04 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Iscool; narses

“Jesus, the 2nd part of the Trinity had no mother...”

Strange, that’s not what the Bible says.

Matthew 1:18: “This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged...”

Mary 3:31: “Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived.”

John 2:1: “Jesus’ mother was there...”

John 2:3: “When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

John 19:25: “Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.”


20 posted on 08/15/2009 8:12:02 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Yudan; Mr Rogers

On a natural level, what force equals that of momma bear? How much greater the Mother of God?


21 posted on 08/15/2009 8:25:27 PM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: Yudan

:)Hey where is that in the rules:)


22 posted on 08/15/2009 8:30:07 PM PDT by fatima (Free Hugs Today :))
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To: fatima; Yudan

It certainly is not canonical, it may not even be absolutely accurate, but:

“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”

Benjamin Franklin


23 posted on 08/15/2009 8:33:59 PM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: narses

Heheehehe


24 posted on 08/15/2009 8:41:41 PM PDT by fatima (Free Hugs Today :))
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To: fatima

:)


25 posted on 08/15/2009 8:46:29 PM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: narses

“On a natural level, what force equals that of momma bear? How much greater the Mother of God?”

Well, I knew a guy who stopped one with a 30-30, although it was from about 10 feet and he was knocked over by the corpse. So I guess a 30-30 rifle is a force greater than that of a momma bear.

What does that have to do with Mary? Was she packing a 375 H&H Magnum?

My problem with Mariology is that in Scripture, Jesus had multiple chances to exalt or praise his mother - and He always passed on it.

Mary disappears after Pentecost, so presumably this miraculous event took place before Acts was written. I have a hard time believing that Paul wouldn’t mention it when defending his Apostleship, or Luke mention it somewhere as evidence of the truth.

To me, it reads like one of the spurious gospels or ‘Acts’ of Apostle XZY.

As for Holy Tradition - is it “God-breathed” as Scripture is? If so, where is it written down so all may know exactly what God breathed, and didn’t?

The Church Fathers had a LOT of disagreements. It makes it tough for me to accept ‘tradition’ as God-breathed.

However, as long as it doesn’t CONTRADICT scripture, I don’t really care. Let God straighten His servants out on His schedule. OTOH, if someone wants to impose it on me for salvation, then we have a fight.

The Orthodox Church seems willing to let God deal with me on His schedule. That is something I respect. Scripture doesn’t tell me the fate of Mary. When scripture is silent, tradition is free to speak.


26 posted on 08/15/2009 9:14:51 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Campion
When you get bored with re-inventing 1600 year old heresies (this particular one is called Nestorianism, and was rejected by the One True Church in AD 431) ...

No doubt the Nestorians rejected your religion long before 431 AD...I'll take the side of the Nestorians...

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Oddly, this doesn't clear it up for you...

27 posted on 08/15/2009 9:33:15 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: vladimir998
Jesus, the 2nd part of the Trinity had no mother...

Not til He was born in the flesh...

28 posted on 08/15/2009 9:43:20 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

You wrote:

“Not til He was born in the flesh...”

If He was born in the flesh, then He had a mother. Couldn’t someone say He didn’t BECOME Jesus until He took on flesh in Mary’s womb? He was ALWAYS the Second Person of the Trinity, but He wasn’t always flesh. And when He took on flesh, He had a mother. Period.


29 posted on 08/15/2009 9:45:57 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Kolokotronis
A wonderful Feast of the Dormition to you! Being on the Julian Calendar, we don't celebrate it until the 27th of August...

One of my very favourite hymns is from this Feast:

O ye Apostles, who have come together here from many places, bury my body here in the garden of Gethsemane, and thou, my Son and my God, recieve my spirit...

Mu grandfather actually did a beautiful arrangement of this hymn...

30 posted on 08/15/2009 9:51:32 PM PDT by blinachka (Vechnaya Pamyat Daddy... xoxo)
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To: Mr Rogers

You wrote:

“My problem with Mariology is that in Scripture, Jesus had multiple chances to exalt or praise his mother - and He always passed on it.”

Mary, herself, said all generations would afterward call her blessed. If that isn’t being exalted by God, what is? You might want to look at Luke 5:2 where Mary says God has exalted the lowly - like her. Jesus exalted Mary simply by being born of her too.

It’s amazing how little anti-Catholics know about the Bible.


31 posted on 08/15/2009 9:54:27 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Mr Rogers
You are comparing a bear to the Mother of God.
32 posted on 08/15/2009 10:14:56 PM PDT by fatima (Free Hugs Today :))
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To: narses

Matt Maher’s Litany of Saints
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG75daBWPdQ


33 posted on 08/15/2009 10:19:22 PM PDT by fatima (Free Hugs Today :))
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To: fatima

Youth Rally with Pope Benedict XVI - Litany of the Saints

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SlGfHwyC-M&feature=related


34 posted on 08/15/2009 10:42:45 PM PDT by fatima (Free Hugs Today :))
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To: blinachka

I trust you will have a joyous feast. We had a family get together with the Irish side of the family and people came from all over the East coast. Although my immediate family missed it as we were at Divine Liturgy, my Jesuit cousin said the Mass for the Assumption for the Latins in the family. All in all it was a wonderful day.

” Mu grandfather actually did a beautiful arrangement of this hymn...”

Do you have a link to an audio file?


35 posted on 08/16/2009 4:47:49 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Mr Rogers
So you will understand where we are coming from, here is a 13th Icon of Panagia Platytera from Yaroslavl. An almost identical 13th century one is in the Church of the Holy Apostles in my maternal village down in Greece:

The word "Platytera" is from the phrase "Platytera ton ouranon", "Broader that the heavens", meaning that her womb contained within it the Creator of the Universe, the "Being Who created being" as we say, which is graphically taught by this icon showing Christ within the Theotokos. Christ is True God and True Man. If one contemplates the Creator of Existence as having been quite literally contained within her, her exalted status among Orthodox and Latin Christians really isn't surprising. As for me, whenever I see this icon, especially standing in the church in my maternal village where my ancestors have worshiped God for 1000 years or so, I identify and relate to Panagia as my very own mother.

36 posted on 08/16/2009 5:26:22 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: dartuser
If this event was true, it would be in the gospels or Acts.

Only if you have deluded yourself into believing that Scripture is a comprehensive record of everything that occurred, which it isn't.

"Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of His disciples, which are not written in this book. " John 20:30

"But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written." John 21:25

37 posted on 08/16/2009 6:53:46 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Iscool
Jesus, the 2nd part of the Trinity had no mother...

Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.

"And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Luke 1:43

38 posted on 08/16/2009 6:57:07 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.

"And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Luke 1:43

I'm not ignorant of the verse you cite so your accusation doesn't fly...

However, ignorance of context is just plain ignorance...

You want to show us where Mary was present as the mother of God before the world was created??? What??? You can't??? Oooh, it's just a fable, I mean tradition, in your religion...Don't need any scripture for that, do we...

39 posted on 08/16/2009 8:13:49 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Mr Rogers

Did not Our Lord obey His Mother?


40 posted on 08/16/2009 8:49:14 AM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: narses

As an adult? Not really. On the whole, he acts dismissive of her, not adoring.


41 posted on 08/16/2009 9:06:07 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers

Really? An odd view of Our Lord dishonoring His Mother.

What were His last words to Mary and about Her?


42 posted on 08/16/2009 9:35:04 AM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

43 posted on 08/16/2009 9:36:19 AM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: Kolokotronis
What does the last verse of +John’s gospel say, d?

In its own way, it says sola Scriptura is false.

44 posted on 08/16/2009 9:37:30 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Iscool
Ladies and gentlemen, the Nestorian heresy:

Jesus, the 2nd part of the Trinity had no mother...

45 posted on 08/16/2009 9:39:29 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Iscool; Campion; narses
No doubt the Nestorians rejected your religion long before 431 AD...I'll take the side of the Nestorians...

So, you DO NOT believe our Lord, Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God?

Which part WASN'T He?

46 posted on 08/16/2009 9:42:22 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Petronski; Iscool

Read post #27.


47 posted on 08/16/2009 9:43:32 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Iscool
I'll take the side of the Nestorians...

Rejecting the God-given gifts of logic and common sense will do that to a man.

48 posted on 08/16/2009 9:44:27 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Kolokotronis
don’t delude yourself into believing that those Greek bishops who canonized the books of the NT allowed ANYTHING into their canonized scripture which conflicted with what they preserved as Holy Tradition.

I agree with this. The part that makes me still Protestant, however, is this question: How do you determine what is valid "holy tradition"?

As a Protestant, I don't have an answer.

49 posted on 08/16/2009 9:45:48 AM PDT by jude24
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To: wagglebee

Yeah, it’s amazing, isn’t it? And sad.


50 posted on 08/16/2009 9:47:53 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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