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Protestant Group Predicts the Rise of "New Charlemagne" in Germany
PatrickMadrid ^ | September 7, 2009 | Patrick Madrid

Posted on 09/07/2009 4:14:54 PM PDT by NYer



End-times mania and wild-eyed apocalyptic predictions have long been a staple in certain sectors of the Protestant world. In addition to the more mainstream Protestant prognosticators who have made a very comfortable living off their end-times related books and broadcasts (e.g., Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, and Tim LaHaye, to name but three of the more prominent ones), groups which derive from Protestantism, such as Seventh-day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses, also spend an inordinate amount of time and energy trying to map out the contours of the rise of the Man of Sin and the dire happenings described in the Bible, especially the Book of Revelation.

Lots of contradictory and conflicting predictions result, but the one thing that all of these groups have in common is their fixation on the Catholic Churh as being the fulcrum of end-times activity. This new article by a leader in the Philadelphia Church of God continues in that vein:

Is Germany’s Charlemagne About to Appear?

As I write this article, Germany is just weeks from electing a new chancellor. That election and events to unfold from it are going to bring devastating consequences to this world. A dangerous political structure has been built in the European Union, and it’s about to get a lot worse. History thunders its strongest warning ever! It’s time that people understood that history.

But there is a lot more than history involved in understanding European politics.

What is happening in the European superstate is a mystery to most of the world. But that mystery is beginning to be removed.

Bernard Connolly wrote a bombshell book in 1995 titled The Rotten Heart of Europe. For years he served at the heart of the Exchange Rate Mechanism for the European Union. He headed the commission unit responsible for monitoring and servicing the system. He labels the European superstate as rotten. Since he had a vital job on the inside, his comments deserve our attention.

The Spirit of Charlemagne

“It is the battle for control of the European superstate,” Mr. Connolly wrote, “in which French technocrats confront German federalists, both sides claiming to fight under thebanner of Charlemagne. The ‘collateral damage’ from this battle lies mainly in the future, but it could be ghastly” (emphasis mine throughout).

“It could be ghastly.” That is an understatement!

Who will get control of this great superstate? And just how ghastly is it going to be? The battle can be narrowed down to two nations—France and Germany. Do knowledgeable people really doubt who has already won this battle? The nation that controls the money will reign supreme. Of course, that has already proven to be Germany.

“Across the Rhine, successive German governments have, in their pursuit of a ‘European’ cloak for German ambitions, been prepared to accept an apparent cession of national monetary authority—as long as the new European monetary authority looks, sounds, smells and acts exactly as the German monetary authority now does” (ibid.).

The EU system has already been called a Trojan horse. Mr. Connolly says it is a “cloak for German ambitions.”

Just what are those ambitions? And why should every person on Earth be deeply concerned?

Otto von Habsburg was one of the key figures in creating the European Union. He had this to say about that union: “The [European] Community is living largely by the heritage of the Holy Roman Empire, though the great majority of the people who live by it don’t know by what heritage they live.”

Twenty-seven countries are members of the EU today. Most of them don’t know that they are “living largely by the heritage of the Holy Roman Empire.” It is a mystery to them.

According to Bible prophecy, the number of member nations or groups of nations will be reduced to 10 rulers. There are simply too many nations in the EU now for the Union to be ruled in the spirit of Charlemagne. Only after it has been severely reduced in member countries can the Holy Roman Empire function as it has in its extremely bloody past.

Mr. Habsburg also said, “We possess a European symbol which belongs to all nations of Europe equally; this is the crown of the Holy Roman Empire, which embodies the tradition of Charlemagne.”

Just what is “the tradition of Charlemagne”? It is far from what most people think it is—even Europeans!

Charles the Great

The Franks were the first barbaric tribe to embrace Catholicism, but it was for political gain, not religious reasons. Mostly of Germanic origin, the Franks used the Catholic Church to support their expansionist policies, while the church relied on Frankish rulers for protection. It was a union based on politics alone.

The Frankish kingdom reached the pinnacle of its power during the rule of Charlemagne (Charles the Great). Before Charlemagne’s emergence as world ruler, the political scene in Europe was greatly divided. Germany was sliced into many different tribes. Much of Italy was occupied by the Lombards. Byzantium was recognized as the successor to the eastern region of the old Roman Empire. Charlemagne, in conjunction with the papal throne, eventually changed all that—but not without much bloodshed.

Historians call his rule the First Reich—even though Charlemagne was the second ruler of the Holy Roman Empire. Adolf Hitler’s rule became known as the Third Reich.

Charlemagne felt it his duty to defend the church. In 774, at the request of Pope Leoiii, he entered northern Italy and conquered the Lombard kingdom, uniting Italy for the first time in centuries. In 799, he again came to the aid of the pope, who was assaulted, brutally beaten, and thrown into prison by a band of conspirators. With the military backing of Charles and his Frankish troops, the pope was exonerated of all wrongdoing and reinstated to his ecclesiastic office.

The following year, in Rome, while Charlemagne was kneeling in prayer during a Christmas celebration inside old St. Peter’s Church, the pope placed a crown upon his head, pronouncing him “the 73rd emperor of the fourth world empire.”

At this point, we should note that throughout the Middle Ages, many scholars, theologians, even popes, knew the Roman Empire was the fourth world-ruling kingdom.Many of them even identified this fourth kingdom with the one Daniel spoke of in his prophecy (see Daniel 2:37-43). That’s why Europeans and Catholics kept trying to revive the empire! The Bible said there would only be four such empires. However, the fourth empire would have 10 resurrections, according to Bible prophecy. The last seven of those resurrections would be called Holy Roman Empires, because they were ruled by church and state.

As king of the Franks, Charlemagne was able to subjugate every single German tribe but one: the Saxons. The Saxons clung to their own faith and refused, even on pain of death, to submit to Roman Catholicism. Charlemagne determined to force his brand of Christianity on them with the sword. For years the Saxons obstinately resisted. At one point, out of sheer frustration, Charlemagne executed 4,500 Saxon prisoners. This barbarous act angered the Saxons even more.

It took 30 years for Charles to completely extinguish the “Saxon” problem, but not before multiple thousands had been executed for their religious beliefs. After more than 18 conquests against the Saxons, Charles finally prevailed. In the end, Saxons either subjected themselves to the rule of Charles, or their defiance ended in death.

The Holy Roman Empire has never been democratic. It could never be. Even Pope Pius xiisaid the church had twin enemies: the democracies and communism. He was pope at the peak of Communist power.

As emperor of the “Holy” Roman Empire, Charles felt it his duty to spread the Christian faith using whatever means necessary. The New Encyclopedia Britannica says, “The violent methods by which this missionary task was carried out had been unknown to the earlier Middle Ages, and the sanguinary [bloody] punishment meted out to those who broke canon law or continued to engage in pagan practices called forth criticism in Charles’ own circle” (“Charlemagne, Emperor”).

The violence Charlemagne used to enforce the Catholic religion on his subjects was simply unknown in earlier empires! He forced his brand of Christianity on everyone. His empire may have had distinct ties to the ancient Romans, but it was certainly not “holy”—even if there was a great church guiding it.

And yet, for centuries to come, the aim of succeeding emperors was to restore the traditions of Charlemagne in their quest to revive the Roman Empire!

Even today, Germany and a great church are working to restore the tradition of Charlemagne. They have almost completed the structure. Still, it is a mystery to most of the world’s inhabitants.

Let the world beware! That power structure is ready to burst on the world scene—again!

Charlemagne’s bloody conquests were the worst ever in the history of the previous empires. The conquests of the next Holy Roman Empire are going to be the worst suffering ever inflicted on human beings in the history of man! (Matthew 24:21-22; Daniel 12:1; Jeremiah 30:1-10).

It will all be done in the spirit of Charlemagne. Most people won’t awaken out of their stupor until it’s too late! . . .

Read the rest of the article



TOPICS: Current Events; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholic; charlemagne; christians; endtimes; europeanchristians; germany; history; protbashing; protestant

1 posted on 09/07/2009 4:14:55 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Of possible interest, ping!


2 posted on 09/07/2009 4:16:16 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: All
Another Patrick Madrid thread!


3 posted on 09/07/2009 4:17:35 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (One man, alone! Betrayed by the country he loves, now its last hope in their final hour of need!)
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To: NYer

I prefer Karl der Grosse, danke.


4 posted on 09/07/2009 4:21:53 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: NYer

A new Charlemagne? A new Holy Roman Empire? Let’s hope so!


5 posted on 09/07/2009 4:22:11 PM PDT by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: Patrick Madrid; Alex Murphy

I didn’t realize you were such a fan of Patrick Madrid.


6 posted on 09/07/2009 4:26:10 PM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: NYer

When the Holy Roman Empire was at its peak, there was a running joke among the nobility of the era. They said that its name was a misnomer: it wasn’t an empire, it wasn’t Roman, and it certainly wasn’t holy.


7 posted on 09/07/2009 4:32:42 PM PDT by Clintonfatigued (Liberal sacred cows make great hamburger)
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To: NYer

I think they have things backwards. Charlemagne created the Holy Roman Empire, which became an utterly meaningless and impotent bureaucracy as soon as he died, that managed to survive almost to modern times, only finally being officially ended in 1806.

Well, the Europeans have created a replacement for the HRE, which is showing signs of becoming as meaningless and useless as its predecessor, and they did it without Charlemagne.


8 posted on 09/07/2009 4:41:33 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: NYer; Patrick Madrid

This is amusing, but I think it’s a little ungallant of Mr. Madrid to go picking on Rev. J. Random Dispensationalist from Nobodyever Heardofit Church of God.

The sun rises, the baby needs a new diaper, and some pastor is in a to-do about the European Community. I saw this movie.

I also read the whole article and can’t figure out what the pastor thinks the new German Chancellor is going to do that so much worse than “ghastly.” What is much, much worse than ghastly, anyway? Ghastly is pretty strong!


9 posted on 09/07/2009 5:01:39 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("This is our duty: to zot their sorry arses into the next time zone." ~ Admin Mod)
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To: Tax-chick
Rev. J. Random Dispensationalist from Nobodyever Heardofit Church of God.

Yo! Do I got a dog in this fight? From the 1500s? Cringe. I'll stand up for the J. Random name, but I'm thinking... Nevermind what I'm thinking. It's dangerous, and not European.

/johnny

10 posted on 09/07/2009 5:16:53 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (God Bless us all, each, and every one.)
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To: Tax-chick
Dispensationalist? No buddy of mine. I'm strictly non-dispensationalist.

Technically, I'm off the reservation. WOO HOO!

Except for the part where we receive grace through faith. Life is tough enough,and then someone adds layers of misunderstanding to the after-life. Can't we all just die and go to heaven?

/johnny

11 posted on 09/07/2009 5:23:35 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (God Bless us all, each, and every one.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

I’m sure it’s just a coincidence of the same first name, not that you’re related to Rev. Dispensationalist. Teh Interwebs are full of people with the first name “Tax,” too.


12 posted on 09/07/2009 5:24:57 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("This is our duty: to zot their sorry arses into the next time zone." ~ Admin Mod)
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To: Tax-chick
Teh Interwebs are full of people with the first name “Tax,” too.

Most of my family, factiods being bandied about.

/johnny

13 posted on 09/07/2009 5:28:35 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (God Bless us all, each, and every one.)
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To: Clintonfatigued

When the German Roman Empire was at its peak (say, 1180s or so), no one told this stupid joke because “Holy Roman Empire” was first used in the 1600s, after the Empire had become an empty shell (it collapsed about 1250 and was replaced on the European stage by the rising consolidated kingdoms of France and England; the title continued but it became the basis for the Habsburg house dynasty, which itself split into two branches, one in the nation-state of Spain (and the Netherlands), the other in Austria, eventually the Austro-Hungarian empire).

Holy Roman Empire is a modern term. The actual medieval empire was Frankish under Charles the Great then shifted to the eastern, German, portion of what had been Charles’s realm. It was really established as the German Kingdom/Roman Empire by Otto I ca. 950 and lasted to about 1250. It covered German and northern Italy. At the end it also added southern Italy and Sicily briefly. The elected king of the Germans also held the title of Roman Emperor (since Charlemagne).

So the joke is one of those modern anti-medieval snotnosed jibes at a supposed evil medieval past.


14 posted on 09/07/2009 5:42:12 PM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

There were no bureaucracies in the Middle Ages. They didn’t have the technical ability to be bureaucracies. And Charlemagne’s empire was divided after his death among his three grandsons but the eastern third of it was transformed into a real empire by the Ottonian kings in the 900s.

And “Holy” was not used for either Charles’s or the German-Italian empire at all.


15 posted on 09/07/2009 5:44:41 PM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: JRandomFreeper

I got some goofballs in the family, too, but I don’t blame them for the soi-disant Holy Roman Empire, or the eventual end of the world. We’re just not that interesting.


16 posted on 09/07/2009 6:02:22 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("This is our duty: to zot their sorry arses into the next time zone." ~ Admin Mod)
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To: Tax-chick
but I don’t blame them for the soi-disant Holy Roman Empire, or the eventual end of the world.

That's nice. Actually, I've got 2 in the running, and I may be lead.

But family is family. Not the HRE again. Sigh.

/johnny

17 posted on 09/07/2009 6:55:14 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (God Bless us all, each, and every one.)
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To: Clintonfatigued

You wrote:

“When the Holy Roman Empire was at its peak, there was a running joke among the nobility of the era. They said that its name was a misnomer: it wasn’t an empire, it wasn’t Roman, and it certainly wasn’t holy.”

Actually, the saying is from Voltaire. He invented it in 1756 - about 50 years before the Holy Roman Empire was dissolved.

Voltaire wrote: “Ce corps qui s’appelait et qui s’appelle encore le saint empire romain n’était en aucune manière ni saint, ni romain, ni empire.”

Translation: “This agglomeration which was called and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.”


18 posted on 09/07/2009 7:27:31 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Houghton M.

you wrote:

“There were no bureaucracies in the Middle Ages. They didn’t have the technical ability to be bureaucracies.”

There were bureaucracies.

Just read From Ad Hoc to Routine: A Case Study in Medieval Bureaucracy. Contributors: Ellen E. Kittell - author. Publisher: University of Pennsylvania Press. Place of Publication: Philadelphia. Publication Year: 1991.

A more recent book that at least touches on bureaucracies in the Middle Ages is:

Edwin S. Hunt, A History of Business in Medieval Europe 1200-1500, Cambridge University Press, 1999.

Hunt shows that the medieval bureaucracies were small, but they still existed. The same people who invented double-entry accounting seemed destined to have some bureaucracies!


19 posted on 09/07/2009 7:39:28 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

Madrid points people to such insanity, but doesn’t debunk it, probably thinking its ridiculousness is obvious to his readers. For lurkers, however:

The Holy Roman Empire wasn’t a single empire. Such was a designation given several empires which received the political designation from the papacy as being something the papacy supported politically. Habsburg, mentioned in the article, was pretender to the throne of the Austro-Hungarian empire, which was also called the Holy Roman Empire. Certainly, Hitler’s intent in using the propagandist name, “3rd Reich” was not to align himself with the papacy; Hitler was a neo-pagan who favored the Lutheran Church (out of politics, not his own faith; lacking an external power structure, it was easier to dominate.) Rather, it was to cast Germans as the true Romans (Rome, contrary to the quoted article’s implications, was supposed to be the first Reich). The Christian Church, argued Hitler, was a Jewish-led bastardization of the ancient, Germanic faith of Aryanism.

So who is the Habsburg who the author insinuates is trying to build a 4th Reich? For starters, Otto von Habsburg was a fervent anti-Nazi who was condemned to death by Hitler. The invasion of Austria was code-named “Otto” because they expected a movement to place Habsburg on the throne of Austria, which would trigger their immediate invasion to oust him.

Such kook groups probably don’t have any influence on the European Union, but if anything, they probably help ensure that the EU rejects any ties to a common, Christian heritage. Further, although certain early leaders in the pan-European movement clearly did hope to construct an entity which would greatly feel the influence of the Catholic Church, if anything the EU has an anti-clerical, anti-Christian, anti-Catholic bend to it.


20 posted on 09/07/2009 8:33:19 PM PDT by dangus (I am JimThompson)
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To: vladimir998

The term “clerk” comes from “cleric,” or “priest.” Hence, “anti-clerical” (which is almost synonymous in much of the world with “anti-Catholic”) refers to hating an ordained priesthood. You could say that the Catholic church invented the bureaucracy. On the other hand, the terms “clerk” and “bureaucracy” took on money-managing connotations which are a little out of place describing people in a culture that had not adopted the use of a zero yet.


21 posted on 09/07/2009 8:39:21 PM PDT by dangus (I am JimThompson)
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To: NYer
The PCoG has its own demons:
The church claims to be carrying on [Herbert W.] Armstrong's legacy and "Raising the Ruins" of God's one true church after the doctrinal changes made by new WCG leaders Joseph W. Tkach and his son Joseph Jr. The claims that Flurry is carrying on Armstrong's legacy and has received new revelation are rejected by other WCG split-offs (See Gerald Flurry), who consider Flurry one of the false prophets Jesus warned (Mark 13:22) would arise in God's church shortly before Christ's return (www.pcog.info). (Wikipedia)
The PCoG are non-trinitarian heretics since they deviate from the creeds of the ancient catholic Church. Any resemblance to biblical Protestantism is purely coincidental.
22 posted on 09/07/2009 9:52:28 PM PDT by topcat54 ("If Israel is 'God's prophetic clock,' then dispensationalists do not know how to tell time.")
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To: vladimir998
The same people who invented double-entry accounting seemed destined to have some bureaucracies!

One of the great developments of the later middle ages, along with the wide use of decimal numeration and real sentences.

23 posted on 09/08/2009 5:10:44 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("This is our duty: to zot their sorry arses into the next time zone." ~ Admin Mod)
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To: NYer

Yes. “Charlemagne.” His name figures prominently on all European Union documents. So says the Philadelphia Crackpot Church of No-One.

-Theo


24 posted on 09/08/2009 5:44:20 AM PDT by Teˇfilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: topcat54
"The church claims to be carrying on [Herbert W.] Armstrong's legacy and "Raising the Ruins" of God's one true church after the doctrinal changes made by new WCG leaders Joseph W. Tkach and his son Joseph Jr."....The PCoG are non-trinitarian heretics since they deviate from the creeds of the ancient catholic Church. Any resemblance to biblical Protestantism is purely coincidental.

An identification and distinction which is no doubt utterly lost on the majority of readers here. I think "Protestant" for a Catholic is the equivalent of "Gentile" for a Jew.

25 posted on 09/08/2009 6:27:32 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (One man, alone! Betrayed by the country he loves, now its last hope in their final hour of need!)
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To: NYer

I think they are looking at the wrong Roman empire.

The Roman empire split into two parts: east and west. The west fell centuries ago. The eastern empire continuted on (latter changing its name to the Ottoman empire) until about 1917 (WW-I).

We in the west have been so focused on ourselves (as we were part of the western Roman empire) that we have missed the fact that the eastern Roman empire ended only 100 years ago. What’s more, all of the important locations in the Bible (from Jerusalem, Bablylon, Egypt, etc...) are located in what was the EASTERN Roman empire.

Remember, Rome’s OFFICIAL capital was moved from Rome to Constaninople (now called Istanbul in Turkey.)

A empire consisting of most middle-eastern and north-african nations (Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Suadi Arabia, Lebanon, Egypt, Lybia, etc...) would constitute a revived eastern Roman empire too, and would include the official Roman capital of Istanbul.


26 posted on 09/08/2009 6:40:26 AM PDT by Brookhaven (http://theconservativehand.blogspot.com/)
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To: NYer

First, they need a new Charles Martel. Then they can have a new Karl der Grosse.


27 posted on 09/08/2009 6:45:07 AM PDT by Little Ray (Obama is a kamikaze president aimed at the heart of this Republic.)
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To: NYer

The source is deceiving. I was reading this thinking that Patrick Madrid wrote it, and wondering how he went off the deep end like that.

The actual text is from a site called “The Trumpet”.


28 posted on 09/08/2009 7:27:07 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna!)
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To: Brookhaven

Actually the Eastern Roman Empire was conquered and destroyed by the Ottoman Empire. It didn’t change its name.


29 posted on 09/08/2009 7:31:22 AM PDT by Little Ray (Obama is a kamikaze president aimed at the heart of this Republic.)
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To: Rutles4Ever
The source is deceiving....The actual text is from a site called “The Trumpet”.

From a post of mine last October:


To: rangeryder
This Catholic doesn't really know what the "Trumpet" is

The Trumpet is an on-line magazine spun out of the former Worldwide Church of God, an anti-Trinitarian, Anglo-Israelism, apocalyptic personality cult:

The Trumpet has a long history of accurate forecasting of major global events based on this predictive model, tracing back to the beginnings of the Plain Truth magazine in 1934 under the direction of Herbert W. Armstrong. To explore these forecasts, read our sample issue, called “He Was Right!—Remembering five decades of accurate forecasting by Herbert W. Armstrong.”
That this article would equate such heretical beliefs with Protestantism only serves witness to the moral dishonesty and intellectual bankruptcy of the Catholic blogger who wrote it.
7 posted on 10/01/2008 12:21:49 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (What can I say? It's a gift. And I didn't get a receipt, so I can't exchange it.)

30 posted on 09/08/2009 7:38:48 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (One man, alone! Betrayed by the country he loves, now its last hope in their final hour of need!)
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To: NYer

Boy, plenty of examples of a deficient knowledge of history on this thread, starting with the original article!

So I guess that the author’s point is that a New Chancellor will rise up in Germany under the employ of the antichrist (the Pope) and undo all of the great progress that Christianity has made in Europe over the past 500 years. Wow...


31 posted on 09/08/2009 7:42:57 AM PDT by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: Alex Murphy
That this article would equate such heretical beliefs with Protestantism...

Oh, the irony in that statement...

...only serves witness to the moral dishonesty and intellectual bankruptcy of the Catholic blogger who wrote it.

That said, I agree that there should be differentiation between "mainline" Protestantism, and "moonbat" Protestantism, just as there should be differentiation between the Roman Catholic Church and, say, the Church of Mel Gibson.

32 posted on 09/08/2009 7:54:30 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna!)
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To: Alex Murphy
That this article would equate such heretical beliefs with Protestantism only serves witness to the moral dishonesty and intellectual bankruptcy of the Catholic blogger who wrote it.

Yep. They fight dirty. The counter-Reformation never ended.

33 posted on 09/08/2009 9:37:09 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Rutles4Ever
The actual text is from a site called “The Trumpet”. ,p> Yes ... perhaps I should have rephrased the link by providing the named source. Thank you for pointing that out.
34 posted on 09/08/2009 9:39:21 AM PDT by NYer ( "One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone"- Benedict XVI)
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To: Alex Murphy
groups which derive from Protestantism, such as Seventh-day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses

There's no question at all that the PCoG split off from the WCOG, which grew out of a splinter offshoot of the SDA church, which grew out of (several) churches which were unambiguously Protestant (Methodist and Baptist, principally).

So, yes, the PCoG are a group which "derives from Protestantism" (historically). Among their heresies is a rejection of the Trinity, which places them well outside the pale of traditional confessional Protestantism.

I hope that helps.

35 posted on 09/08/2009 10:39:35 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Yep. They fight dirty.

Take it up with the referee.

36 posted on 09/08/2009 10:40:22 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: NYer

get along, Kid Charlemegne...


37 posted on 09/08/2009 12:20:17 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (hang the Czars.)
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To: Alex Murphy
An identification and distinction which is no doubt utterly lost on the majority of readers here. I think "Protestant" for a Catholic is the equivalent of "Gentile" for a Jew.

Arians and Pelagians have far more in common with the early catholic Church than PCoG has in common with Protestantism.

38 posted on 09/08/2009 1:32:29 PM PDT by topcat54 ("If Israel is 'God's prophetic clock,' then dispensationalists do not know how to tell time.")
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To: Campion; Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg
There's no question at all that the PCoG split off from the WCOG, which grew out of a splinter offshoot of the SDA church, which grew out of (several) churches which were unambiguously Protestant (Methodist and Baptist, principally).

Which is only one step removed from the RCC denomination, so what is your point?

39 posted on 09/08/2009 1:34:59 PM PDT by topcat54 ("If Israel is 'God's prophetic clock,' then dispensationalists do not know how to tell time.")
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To: vladimir998

Late medieval. Not during the time of the German/Roman Empire. The books you cite deal with the late Middle Ages.

They had chanceries, yes. But if you think that the government apparatus, record-keeping, administration of as king or bishop in the Middle Ages was anything remotely like a modern bureaucracy, you’re crazier than Joe Biden. They could never have fathomed what we mean by bureaucracy. It was not thinkable.


40 posted on 09/10/2009 1:04:10 PM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: Houghton M.

You wrote:

“Late medieval. Not during the time of the German/Roman Empire.”

First, there was no such thing as the “German/Roman Empire”. Second, late medieval or not, there were bureaucracies.

“The books you cite deal with the late Middle Ages.”

And you’re point is what? Is late medieval some how not medieval? You yourself wrote: “There were no bureaucracies in the Middle Ages.” Middle Ages. Not “Early Middle Ages”. Notice your own comment?

“They had chanceries, yes. But if you think that the government apparatus, record-keeping, administration of as king or bishop in the Middle Ages was anything remotely like a modern bureaucracy, you’re crazier than Joe Biden.”

Where did I ever suggest that medieval bureaucracies were like modern ones?

“They could never have fathomed what we mean by bureaucracy. It was not thinkable.”

Actually I think they could have imagined it and fathomed it quite well.


41 posted on 09/10/2009 3:31:13 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

Yes, the was a Roman Empire of the German Nation in the Middle Ages.

Bureaucracy is a modern invention. Sorry, it just is. Its beginnings lie in the later Middle Ages, 1400s, and it is a mark of the early modern. That’s how historians define the early modern. And that’s what your books deal with.

But why bother with some historical facts?


42 posted on 09/11/2009 5:39:49 PM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: Houghton M.

Between the two of us I am the one dealing with facts.


43 posted on 09/11/2009 5:55:20 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

No you aren’t.


44 posted on 09/12/2009 6:28:01 AM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: Houghton M.

Yeah, actually I am.

The Middle Ages is still the Middle Ages - no matter how late in the Middle Ages it is.

You can try to change the rules late in the game, but too late. You said Middle Ages, not modern period.

I already posted evidence about bureaucracy in the Middle Ages and no matter how small it was compared to MODERN bureaucracy it was STILL bureaucracy. Period.

I was right all along.


45 posted on 09/12/2009 6:35:56 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

No you aren’t.


46 posted on 09/12/2009 8:35:20 AM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: NYer
The linked article is from a small cultic sabbatarian group in Oklahoma headed by a man named Gerald R. Flurry founder of The Philadelphia Church of God.

Gerald Flurry has an unnatural affection for a man who died back in the 1980's named Herbert W. Armstrong. Armstrong had a long list of failed prophecies including Germany winning WWII. Armstrong also prophesied this Charlemagne would return around 1972 as leader of Germany and Jesus Christ would return in the middle 1970's. Armstrong also prophesied a German politician Franz Joseph Strauss would be this Charlemagne (Strauss died in 1988).

Since he got started in the 1930's, Armstrong always preached the World was about to end. He constantly fearmongering more and more money from members to help the "end time work" only to spent members tithes on himself, his cronies, opulent buildings, homes and Gulfstream jets.

Herbert W. Armstrong brought his son Garner Ted into the business but Garner Ted caused so much trouble with his drinking, gambling and preying on female students that the elder Armstrong had to fire him. Garner Ted Armstrong went on to found his own church where he continued his wild ways most notably assaulting a masseuse while wanking himself. In one of his more notable stories, Gerald Rivera caught the pervert Garner Ted Armstrong on film.

Like Armstrong before him, Gerald R. Flurry preaches the end of the world is near. He continually tries to fearmonger more tithe and offering money from his members for the "final push" before the Great Tribulation begins and Christ returns only to turn around and spend it buying more land, building more opulent buildings, building elegant homes for he and his cronies and his general ego gratification.

By the way, a few years back, Gerald Flurry was found by a police officer passed out drunk in an Oklahoma college campus. Gerald Flurry never explained what he was doing on a Saturday night away from his wife and kids getting drunk on a college campus.

47 posted on 09/19/2009 6:03:48 PM PDT by fso301
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To: NYer; All
The linked article is from a small cultic apocalyptic sabbatarian group in Oklahoma headed by a man named Gerald R. Flurry who founded of The Philadelphia Church of God.

Gerald Flurry has an unnatural affection for a man who died back in the 1980's named Herbert W. Armstrong. Armstrong had a long list of failed prophecies including Germany winning WWII. Armstrong also prophesied this Charlemagne would return around 1972 as leader of Germany and Jesus Christ would return in the middle 1970's. Armstrong also prophesied a German politician Franz Joseph Strauss would be this Charlemagne (Strauss died in 1988).

Since he got started in the 1930's, Armstrong always preached the World was about to end. He constantly fearmongering more and more money from members to help the "end time work" only to spent members tithes on himself, his cronies, opulent buildings, homes and Gulfstream jets.

Herbert W. Armstrong brought his son Garner Ted into the business but Garner Ted caused so much trouble with his drinking, gambling and preying on female students that the elder Armstrong had to fire him. Garner Ted Armstrong went on to found his own church where he continued his wild ways most notably assaulting a masseuse while wanking himself. In one of his more notable stories, Gerald Rivera caught the pervert Garner Ted Armstrong on film.

Like Armstrong before him, Gerald R. Flurry preaches the end of the world is near. He continually tries to fearmonger more tithe and offering money from his members for the "final push" before the Great Tribulation begins and Christ returns only to turn around and spend it buying more land, building more opulent buildings, building elegant homes for he and his cronies and his general ego gratification.

By the way, a few years back, Gerald Flurry was found by a police officer passed out drunk in an Oklahoma college campus. Gerald Flurry never explained what he was doing on a Saturday night away from his wife and kids getting drunk on a college campus.

48 posted on 09/19/2009 6:07:41 PM PDT by fso301
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