For those who may be interested in this topic.
WTS ought to be called Hyper-Calvinism Seminary. Where else is Dutch a required subject.
If Calvinism is about anything it is about the complete lack of participation on our part in our salvation. God does everything. We are merely passive observers on our predestined paths to Heaven or Hell.
Just to clarify:
Christ’s “once-for-all” sacrifice is eternal. Maybe a wording which cause less confusion than “eternal” these days is “not temporal,” since “eternal” has come to mean “continuing forever,” which is different than the Church has used it in contexts such as these.
That said, it’s interesting if Calvin discarded the correct “eternal sacrifice” of the Mass, while preserving an incorrect notion of eternal sacrifice in Hell.
from the denomination that brings us Mary the co-redeemer..........pffffft
No wonder the West is full of atheists.
Since we are all by definition sinners does this comment then mean that no one deserves Heaven?
Project Infinite Freep: Restore our national dialog!
More Swedenborgians:
Carl Jung and the Holy Grail of the Unconscious - NYTimes.com -- NY Times
Johnny Appleseed: Swedenborgian Evangelist in America
Johnny Appleseed; Good News Fresh From Heaven
Foundation for my Church
Major confirmations of Him:
THE TWELVE STONES SET UP AT THE JORDAN FOUND WITH INSCRIPTIONS
The Resurrection icon shows Our Lord pulling Adam and Eve up from the grave.
Christ is our rescuer, our hero, our King! He is not Calvin's imagined whipping boy.
“Years ago while listening”...”I should stop there”
Being neither Calvinist nor Catholic, I usually read and enjoy these posts without comment, but have to say that I’ve heard several Calvinist preachers reject this doctrine. My own take is that Jesus declared his victory over death and the wages of sin.
I’ll run on, and mind my own business now.
Well, wait a minute.
I s’pose it depends on how one defines “hell”. I am averse to thinking of a cave-ridden dwelling face full of sulphur and flames. I believe the biblical idea of hell is truly defined as separation from God. Isn’t that what happened on the cross, evidenced by Christ’s cry of the Psalter “Why have you forsaken me?”
If indeed Christ was, for that time, forsaken by His Father, then how can one argue he wasn’t in hell?
My thoughts.
bookmark
“•If you’re Reformed, do you agree with Calvin? If so, how does his view not denigrate the cross?”
I am not “Reformed” however:
Scripture teaches that all humanity is tainted and corrupted by sin, both because of the sin of our forefather Adam (Rom. 5:12-21) and because we ourselves are all sinners (Eph. 2:l3). God, as the righteous Judge, cannot and will not simply overlook sin, since sin violates His nature and brings destruction to the perfect world He created. God would be unjust simply to say, “Oh well, boys will be boys.” Instead, sin must be punished, and since all of us have broken God’s law, we rightly deserve full punishment. Yet, amazingly, Jesus came to take our punishment upon Himself.
The NT speaks of Jesus’ death providing forgiveness in at least three ways:
First, Jesus’ death was a sacrifice for our sins. Christ fulfills the OT sacrificial system in being both high priest and sacrifice (Heb 5 10). On the Day of Atonement, animals were killed before the altar and the blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat in the most holy place. Under that seat were tablets of stone upon which had been written the Ten Commandments. Looking down from heaven God could see the law, but when the sacrificial blood was sprinkled, the law as reminder of the people’s sin was covered. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin (Heb 9:22).
Second, the NT speaks of Christ’s death as a “propitiation” for our sin (Rom. 3:21-26). This word, “hilasmos”, carries the meaning of “an offering satisfying God’s wrath toward sin,” yet remarkably God Himself provides this offering. When Jesus died on the cross, He cried out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (Mt 27:46). The Father was pouring out His wrath because “He made the One who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2Cor. 5:21).
Third, and related to both points already made, the Bible speaks of Christ’s death as a substitution. Jesus did not come to be served but to serve and “to give His life a ransom for many” (Mk 10:45). Jesus “gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from this present evil age” (Gal. 1:4). Isaiah’s predictions of a coming Suffering Servant are fulfilled in the death of Jesus, who “was pierced because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities and the Lord has punished Him for the iniquity of us all” (Is 53:5-6). He died in our place.
By faith, and faith alone, we receive the forgiveness Christ provides through His humiliating and painful death. The result? Eternal life (Eph. 2:3-10).
The phrases “In Christ” and “fellowship of His sufferings” refer to a believer’s union in Christ, not to the believer’s suffering for his sin. That was taken care of in the death of Christ.
The informed reader of the New Testament realizes at once that Jesus, through concrete acts and explicit teachings, aimed at the most intimate union of His followers with Himself and God the Father. It is Jesus Who calls, commissions, and sanctifies His disciples. Under various metaphors and pictures, Christ illustrates the depth and scope of His relationship to His own. In Luke 12 and 14, as in Matthew 10 and numerous other passages, Jesus describe the strong bond between His disciples and Himself in terms of the cost of discipleship. For His sake, men are to forsake all—father, mother, brother, sister, house, and home! For His sake, they must be willing to endure the crucifixion of self to the point of martyrdom. And the Apostles and early disciples forsook all and followed the divine Master. In fact, Jesus so completely identified Himself with His disciples that He could say, “Whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will the Father give unto you.” When Christ’s followers herald the gospel of grace and judgment, they do so with the assurance that “he that heareth you heareth me, and he that despiseth you, despiseth me and him that sent me.” Luke 10:3-16.
Whether Jesus speaks of following in His steps, of enduring in affliction, of speaking in His name, of suffering for His sake, of sharing in His glory, or of always abiding in Him, this intimate, personal, indestructible union of the believer with Christ is in evidence. Jesus is the light of the world: His disciples, in turn, are to be the light shining in darkness. Jesus is the vine; and we are the branches. He is the shepherd; we are His sheep. He is the Master; we are His servants. As our elder brother, He is not ashamed to call us His brethren. As Christ is in the Father, so are we in Him. His glorification, through cross and death, involves our own glorification and ultimate salvation. What could be more holy than Jesus through his bloody passion purchasing our redemption and through His glorious resurrection making us eternally His own? In the explicit teachings of our Lord, there is the joy of salvation, the gift of eternal life, fortitude in trial, and the promise of ultimate, culminating fellowship with God through the grace and power of His Son and our Savior Jesus Christ.
With regard to mystical union of the believer with Christ, Paul is explicit. The extreme importance of the Pauline formula “in Christ Jesus.” is demonstrated by the formula, which occurs over 64 times in his writings, where Paul sought to express the intimate, mystical union between Christ and himself and every true believer.
In Christ, thus Paul teaches, we were chosen, (Rom. 16:13), called, (Rom. 3:24), foreordained, (Eph. 1:11), created unto good works, (Eph. 2:10), have obtained an inheritance, (Eph. 1:11), “being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will, that we should be to the praise of his glory.
In Christ, each believer is justified, (Gal. 2:17), sanctified, (1Cor. 1:2), but also crucified, as attested through the symbolism of our baptism into Christ’s death,” and enriched in all utterance and knowledge.’(1Cor. 1:5). We are declared to be one in our relationship with men of all races and tongues. (Gal. 3:28, 29).
The Apostle is deeply convinced that in Christ and in Him alone we have redemption,’ eternal life,’ Rom. (6:23), righteousness,’ wisdom for our folly,’ (1 Cor. 4:10), liberty from the law;’ (1 Cor. 7:22), and in Christ, God, the Father, “has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places.” (Eph. 1:3). Paul is sure that God causes us to triumph in Christ, and that always, without failure. (2 Co. 2:14).
I am a Calvinist, a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.
I think you err when you assume that someone who uses the shorthand of “Calvinist” must believe everything Calvin said or did was right.
I think he did a lot of things right. I think he called out a lot of serious errors in the Roman Catholic Church of the time. But you know, he was just a man.
Some call themselves Wesleyan in theology. I don’t think that means they believe everything the Wesleys did was perfect. It’s shorthand, to describe a particular application of what they see as biblical teaching.
A Calvinist essentially agrees with the 5 points (TULIP):
1. The total depravity of man
2. Unconditional election (we don’t get picked because we are specially good in some way)
3. Limited atonement (Jesus died for His people, not the lost)
4. Irresistable grace (You can’t stop God from saving you if He has decided to)
5. Perseverance of the Saints (if you are truly saved, God will not let you go).
There are varieties on the themes above, but when someone says they are a Calvinist, it is just shorthand, usually, for saying they basically agree with the above points.
As for suffering in hell, the Apostle’s Creed reads:
1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and the life everlasting.
Amen.
So I am not sure why you say traditional Christianity does not believe that Jesus, in some way, “went to hell.”
I have just recently did a study on Calvinism and Arminism.
One of the best is titled: “Born By The Railroad Tracts” as; A “Confession of a zero-point Calvinist.”
I loved it, and have it availible to send anyone a copy by e-mail, if they would like.
So Calvin simply divorces the Divine from the human and creates this myth that Jesus suffered the pains of hell?
That must have given Lucifer a good yuk.
Yuk to Calvin and his heresy.
Jesus Christ went to Hell alright, but it wasn’t to suffer anymore. He went there to take the keys of hell and death from satan. He set the captives free.
Here are a few other quotes from Calvin...I think you’ve missed what he teaches.
Col 1:24 -
24. I now rejoice. He has previously claimed for himself authority on the ground of his calling. Now, however, he provides against the honor of his apostleship being detracted from by the bonds and persecutions, which he endured for the sake of the gospel. For Satan, also, perversely turns these things into occasions of rendering the servants of God the more contemptible. Farther, he encourages them by his example not to be intimidated by persecutions, and he sets forth to their view his zeal, that he may have greater weight. Nay more, he gives proof of his affection towards them by no common pledge, when he declares that he willingly bears for their sake the afflictions which he endures. “But whence,” some one will ask, “arises this joy?” From his seeing the fruit that springs from it. “The affliction that I endure on your account is pleasant to me, because I do not suffer it in vain.”
And fill up what is wanting. The particle and I understand as meaning for, for he assigns a reason why he is joyful in his sufferings, because he is in this thing a partner with Christ, and nothing happier can be desired than this partnership. Nay more, he declares that there is thus filled up what is wanting in the affliction of Christ. For as he speaks in Romans 8:29,
Whom God elected, he also hath predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ, that he may be the first-born among the brethren.
Farther, we know that there is so great a unity between Christ and his members, that the name of Christ sometimes includes the whole body, as in 1 Corinthians. 12:12, for while discoursing there respecting the Church, he comes at length to the conclusion, that in Christ the same thing holds as in the human body. As, therefore, Christ has suffered once in his own person, so he suffers daily in his members, and in this way there are filled up those sufferings which the Father hath appointed for his body by his decree.
He adds, also, a third reason — that his sufferings are advantageous, and that not merely to a few, but to the whole Church. He had previously stated that he suffered in behalf of the Colossians, and he now declares still farther, that the advantage extends to the whole Church. This advantage has been spoken of in Philippians 1:12. What could be clearer, less forced, or more simple, than this exposition, that Paul is joyful in persecution, because he considers, in accordance with what he writes elsewhere, that we must carry about with us in our body the mortification of Christ, that his life may be manifested in us? (2 Corinthians 4 10.)
He says also in Timothy,
If we suffer with him, we shall also reign with him: if we die with him, we shall also live with him, (2 Timothy 2:11-12)
and thus the issue will be blessed and glorious. Farther, he considers that we must not refuse the condition which God has appointed for his Church, that the members of Christ may have a suitable correspondence with the head; and, thirdly, that afflictions must be cheerfully endured, inasmuch as they are profitable to all the pious, and promote the welfare of the whole Church, by adorning the doctrine of the gospel.
Papists, however, disregarding and setting aside all these things, have struck out a new contrivance in order that they may establish their system of indulgences. They give the name of indulgences to a remission of punishments, obtained by us through the merits of the martyrs. For, as they deny that there is a gratuitous remission of sins, and allege that they are redeemed by satisfactory deeds, when the satisfactions do not fill up the right measure, they call into their help the blood of the martyrs, that it may, along with the blood of Christ, serve as an expiation in the judgment of God. And this mixture they call the treasure of the Church, the keys of which they afterwards entrust to whom they think fit. Nor are they ashamed to wrest this passage, with the view of supporting so execrable a blasphemy, as if Paul here affirmed that his sufferings are of avail for expiating the sins of men.
They urge in their support the term (things wanting,) as if Paul meant to say, that the sufferings which Christ has endured for the redemption of men were insufficient. There is no one, however, that does not see that Paul speaks in this manner, because it is necessary, that by the afflictions of the pious, the body of the Church should be brought to its perfection, inasmuch as the members are conformed to their head. I should also be afraid of being suspected of calumny in repeating things so monstrous, if their books did not bear witness that I impute nothing to them groundlessly. They urge, also, what Paul says, that he suffers for the Church. It is surprising that this refined interpretation had not occurred to any of the ancients, for they all interpret it as we do, to mean, that the saints suffer for the Church, inasmuch as they confirm the faith of the Church. Papists, however, gather from this that the saints are redeemers, because they shed their blood for the expiation of sins.
That my readers, however, may perceive more clearly their impudence, allow that the martyrs, as well as Christ, suffered for the Church, but in different ways, as I am inclined to express in Augustine’s words rather than in my own. For he writes thus in his 84th treatise on John: “Though we brethren die for brethren, yet there is no blood of any martyr that is poured out for the remission of sins. This Christ did for us. Nor has he in this conferred upon us matter of imitation, but ground of thanksgiving.”
Also, in the fourth book to Bonifacius: “As the only Son of God became the Son of man, that he might make us sons of God, so he has alone, without offense, endured punishment for us, that we may through him, without merit, obtain undeserved favor.” Similar to these is the statement of Leo Bishop of Rome; “The righteous received crowns, did not give them; and for the fortitude of believers there have come forth examples of patience, not gifts of righteousness. For their deaths were for themselves, and no one by his latter end paid the debt of another.”
Now, that this is the meaning of Paul’s words is abundantly manifest from the context, for he adds, that he suffers according to the dispensation that was given to him. And we know that the ministry was committed to him, not of redeeming the Church, but of edifying it; and he himself immediately afterwards expressly acknowledges this. This is also what he writes to Timothy, that he endures all things for the sake of the elect, that they may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus.
(2 Timothy 2:10.)
Also, in 2 Corinthians 1:4, that he willingly endures all things for their consolation and salvation.
Let, therefore, pious readers learn to hate and detest those profane sophists, who thus deliberately corrupt and adulterate the Scriptures, in order that they may give some color to their delusions.
And the Philippians passage mentioned:
29. To believe. He wisely conjoins faith with the cross by an inseparable connection, that the Philippians may know that they have been called to the faith of Christ on this condition — that they endure persecutions on his account, as though he had said that their adoption can no more be separated from the cross, than Christ can be torn asunder from himself. Here Paul clearly testifies, that faith, as well as constancy in enduring persecutions, is an unmerited gift of God. And certainly the knowledge of God is a wisdom that is too high for our attaining it by our own acuteness, and our weakness shews itself in daily instances in our own experience, when God withdraws his hand for a little while. That he may intimate the more distinctly that both are unmerited, he says expressly — for Christ’s sake, or at least that they are given to us on the ground of Christ’s grace; by which he excludes every idea of merit.
This passage is also at variance with the doctrine of the schoolmen, in maintaining that gifts of grace latterly conferred are rewards of our merit, on the ground of our having made a right use of those which had been previously bestowed. I do not deny, indeed, that God rewards the right use of his gifts of grace by bestowing grace more largely upon us, provided only you do not place merit, as they do, in opposition to his unmerited liberality and the merit of Christ.