Posted on 10/01/2009 6:29:50 AM PDT by NYer
That's fine, I'm not really interested in your personal interpretation of Scripture anyway.
There are already a number of unbaptized Jews in heaven; for example, the prophets and patriarchs who were raised from the dead at the moment of Jesus’ resurrection. Regarding Jews today, I think they have the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel just like everyone else.
So what were you doing, simply baiting people by asking how people thought a passage that doesn’t apply to the saved applied to their salvation?
“They have, at the very least, taken the single most important step. The child’s soul has been cleansed of original sin and imbued with graces.”
So baptizing a child is a more important step than teaching them the Gospel?
The phrase “may know” is not the same as “will know” or “certainly know.”
The fact of the matter is, as far as Gospel distortions go, the notion that we are ever entitled, ever deserve to “know we are going to Heaven” with 100% certainty ( other than the infinitesimally small amount of time after Confession, or until a baptized baby reaches his particular age of accountability ) is perhaps the greatest perversion of the Gospel from the “Reformation”.
We can’t know with 100% certainty because we can’t know if we will never committ another mortal sin ( such as missing Mass intentionally ) in the future.
The Gospel, or “Good News” is that, through Christ, Man now has the ability to be in full communion with God our Father again, as he was before the Fall. This ability is given by God as a gift of faith in His Son.
This gift of faith is not a guarantee of salvation however, and to belive it is is to believe the same lie as in the Garden, “You surely won’t die!”
We surely can die at any moment, and only if we maintain our faith via continued cooperation with God will we aviod the death of our spirit. The race is not over until we finish it, and only through continued cooperation with God can we ever HOPE to “persevere to the end”.
The fact that a passage doesn't apply to those already in Heaven DOES NOT mean that it doesn't apply to those who believe they are saved.
It's worse than that. Calvin's god created Hitler for the purpose of conducting the Holocaust.
I forgot, Calvin’s god LIKES people like Hitler and Stalin, it’s people like John Paul II, Mother Teresa and Archbishop Fulton Sheen that Calvin’s god hates.
EXCELLENT! (a little weird, but excellent) ;-)
Within one sentence the guess has become necessity:
Babies and small children must have been exempt.
That transition from conjecture to asserted necessity strikes me as problematic.
My guess is that the Scriptural witness is not dispositive.
Circumcision was a sign of being bound by the Covenant that God made with his people Israel, a Covenant not dependent on the individual believing, but which was dependent on the individual keeping their side of the covenant.
And so far as we can tell from Scripture, those in the nation Israel, marked by circumcision as being part of the covenant, DID suffer punishment for failing to abide by that covenant — it seems they had no right to simply ignore the covenant that they were bound by in birth.
I’m an agnostic when it comes to baptism. I’ve been baptised twice, once as an infant, once as an adult, and I now belong to a church that baptises infants but which doesn’t believe people can choose salvation for themselves anyway, nor that baptism actually saves anybody.
If I had to choose, I would say believer’s baptism makes more sense to me given my understanding of the scriptures.
But I have never tried to persuade anybody to NOT have their infants baptised. What would the point be — under my believe in “believer’s baptism”, the child who is too young to understand will certainly not be held accountable for the acts of the parents, so it doesn’t hurt them to be baptised, and even the parents are acting from their belief and attempt to do what they believe God wants.
And then, if the kid wants to be baptised later, they can do that, the infant baptism doesn’t prevent it.
But if the infant baptism people are right, stopping an infant from being baptised would be harmful to them. So allowing infants to be baptised seems less dangerous to me.
Anyway, I had both my kids baptised, but won’t be bothered if they decide to get baptised again as believers. I’d love it if my daughter would come back to the fold, as she is currently convinced God is a big lie, probably in part due to her wanting to be in the field of biology where you can’t really believe in God because of the evolutionists.
“38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.” — Acts 2
“that day’
“But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.” - Acts 8
No specific time frame given, but obviously not months or years...
“35Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. 36And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 38And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.” — Acts 8
Minutes!
“And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; “ - Acts 9
Minutes, or at most hours.
“45And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. “ - Acts 10
Minutes
“One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.” — Acts 16
Sounds like same day, although it might have been slightly longer. It certainly wasn’t after weeks, months, or years.
“7And he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. His house was next door to the synagogue. 8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.” — Acts 18
Not specified. Could be immediate, or could be delayed - text doesn’t specify.
“And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. “ — Acts 19
Minutes.
” 12”And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. 14And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’” - Acts 22
Repeat account of Saul - “And now, why do you wait?”
As I wrote, “Based on biblical example, baptism should follow as soon as possible after conversion.”
The party with the jurisdiction in the matter.
Why do you follow acts and not the Gospel of John?
From the Revised Standard Version:
I John 5:16-17
If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.
"Mortal" translates "προς θανατον" which literally is "to death."
Again, I'm not saying it's a slam dunk in favor of Catholic teaching, but it sure suggests there's no slam dunk AGAINST Catholic teaching on this question.
Now you can deny it, too, because you've just met me, and I'm a Catholic, and that's not my answer (or the Catholic Church's) answer to that question.
He's the Person who commanded us to do this ceremony and apply that sacrament.
Why do you call him 'Lord, Lord' and not do as he commanded?
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