Posted on 10/05/2009 1:14:36 PM PDT by topcat54
Since the 1970's stunning new data has been surfacing about the pretribulation rapture's long-covered-up beginnings in the 1800's. In recent years several persons associated with Dallas Theological Seminary (which had long been pretribized) have reportedly gone to Britain to check on my research sources and then write books opposing my claims. In 1990 an Ohio pastor told me that Dr. _____ _____, the most qualified DTS prof, traveled there and came back and wrote nothing! The pastor added that he and some others had a good laugh. But change was coming. In 1993 Chuck Swindoll, who became DTS president after John Walvoord, stated: "I'm not sure we're going to make dispensationalism [the chief attraction of which is a pretrib rapture] a part of our marquee as we talk about our school." When asked if the word "dispensationalism" would disappear, he answered: "It may and perhaps it should" ("Christianity Today," Oct. 25, 1993)! But a few diehards (with the stubbornness of Iraqi insurgents and New Orleans looters) keep on milking their cash cow while continuing to cover up and twist the following historical facts about their latter-day, cult-like belief:
(Excerpt) Read more at preteristarchive.com ...
The church is not mentioned again after Chapter 3 in Revelation. “Christianity Today”, is not so Christian in their worldview and is a lousy source.
Pre-trib is Truth.
I happen to believe it, but in the end we’ll all know, and hopefully soon.
I have to say I’m tired. I’d like to go home.
More UNHISTORICAL, UNBIBLICAL, RUBBERIZED BLATHER
FROM THE IRRATIONAL, REPLACEMENTARIANS et al,
I see.
What an UNsurprise.
I know. are we just spinning our wheels fighting this one world thought that is ocurring right now. Delaying the inevitable?
I just cling to my belief in God with a kung-fu grip and put a brave face on every morning.
Truly scary stuff going on right now, but nothing like 1930’s Germany.
The issue continues to be the reformed theologians total inability to rightly exegete the OT. They cannot interpret the OT without casting it in the light of the NT. They see every prophecy about Israel that wasn't fulfilled as applying to the church ... and where it doesn't make sense ... they pull out the "spiritual sense" interpretation.
The dispensational premillenial position is the natural result of the historical grammatical approach to interpretation coupled with proper theological method. Since both camps would claim to use the historical grammatical approach to interpretation the larger issues are with theological method.
The Dispensational position would use the following theological method when dealing with matters of interpretation:
1. Recognize preunderstanding.
2. Form a Biblical Theology of the OT using a literal interpretation of the OT text.
3. Form a Biblical Theology of the NT using a literal interpretation of the NT text.
4. Synthesize results into a Systematic Theology.
The non-Dispensational method would use the following:
1. Recognize preunderstanding.
2. Form a Biblical Theology of the NT using a literal interpretation of the NT text.
3. Form a Biblical Theology of the OT based upon the NT understanding of the OT text.
4. Synthesize results into a Systematic Theology.
This is the heart of the matter ... they read the NT back into the Old and cannot interpret the OT outside that framework. It is why they must insist that Matt 24 was totally fulfilled in 70 AD.
When I first became a Christian I became a member of Assemblies of God and remained a member for 18 years. Naturally I was Pre-trib, and EXTREMELY interested in Bible prophesy. I was actually brought to the Lord by Hal Lindsey’s book “The 1980’s, Countdown to Armageddon”. Since then I caught him in a clear and intentional lie in one of his books (A prophetical walk through the holy land) but his failing did not shake my faith one iota. Rather, it showed why he, as well as I, needs the salvation offered through the blood of Christ. But I digress...
A very well read member of our large church gave weekly classes on bible prophesy and was, himself, a strong pre-tribulationist and a personal friend. One day my questions about it reached a head during that class and I found myself leaning towards what can be called mid-tribulationism.
My friend discussed it with me and then gave me a white paper he had written on the subject. I was very excited to be convinced of pre-tribulationism again. After all, who wouldn’t want to avoid all that bad stuff in the first 3.5 years. But as I read his paper and examined each individual
“proof”, one by one, every single one was shot down, leaving me with nothing. I found myself not only questioning his interpretations of some scripture, but strongly disagreeing with his conclusions. The more I read the more I was convinced that his own wishful thinking had brought him to this position.
On a side note, I left that church 12 years ago and visited about 8 months ago. When I entered his class, over half of the people there (about 30 of the 60) were people I attended the class with back in the late 90’s. He was teaching the same class I had cycled through at least twice, to the SAME PEOPLE. He would ask the SAME QUESTIONS and they would give the SAME ANSWERS they did in the 1990’s. I just bit my tongue because, by now, I had some VERY different answers and a LOT of research and documentation to support them.
I am now more convinced of Mid-Tribulationism than ever. Don’t get me wrong, it is not a “bullet” doctrine, but I can’t find anything that supports pre-trib other than the “if it is mid trib events would tell us the exact date” argument, which is easily countered.
About a year ago I found this site: http://watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/Definitions/Def_Pretrib.htm
It is worth a read.
WELL PUT
Though it leaves out human perversity in the equation.
It's the weekly dispensational bashing from the usual suspects.The issue continues to be the reformed theologians total inability to rightly exegete the OT.
Did all the dispy's get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? Been a while since I've seen it this deep.
“Since the 1970’s stunning new data has been surfacing about the pretribulation rapture’s long-covered-up beginnings in the 1800’s.”
wrong for so many reasons, but let’s assume it completely started in the 1800’s or even 1900’s.
For me, the issue is simply whether something is true, based on the Word of God. Is it there? Not how long people have recognized it was there.
I find a pretribulation meeting with Christ and “those of us who are alive and remain” in Thessalonians. Good enough for me. I wasn’t alive anytime before the 1900’s anyway...
The Reformation did a good job recovering the Gospel. It couldn’t do everything at once - nor did it.
In my experience, it is the wackos who deny the Church and claim it is simply Israel that dredge up this kind of nonsense article. They will not even admit to the New Testament being written to instruct the Church.
But, to each their own. I don’t want to invest my life digging through their trash to try to correct them. And anyway, they are too busy trying to carry out Christian Reconstructionism (see Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Reconstructionism) and stone adulterers with Gary North to accept feedback.
I wish them well.
ampu
Naw.
Sometimes we throw more of your stuff back in your faces than at other times.
INDEED.
Well put.
You are right there.
I’ve gone from pre-trib to pre-wrath myself, but all I can say is, I want to be ready no matter when it happens.
The 70 AD destruction of the temple is not the fulfilling of Matthew 24 because Israel was not a nation at that time.
In Matthew 24:32 Jesus states, “Now learn a parable of the fig tree...:
Whenever Christ states “now learn” and then speaks in another parable, the fig tree is obviously not the literal fig tree but representative of something. In this case, Israel.
It did. There is textual no evidence of a pre-trib rapture in the Bible. Even some dispensationalists have admitted as much.
I find a pretribulation meeting with Christ and “those of us who are alive and remain” in Thessalonians.
If that is all it takes, then I can find transformationalism in there as well. But of course, objectively speaking, there is no pre-trib rapture in 1 Thess 4 (or any place else). If you have to fishing for it if it’s required by your system. Most Christians have a system that does not require a dualistic view of the second coming.
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