Posted on 10/20/2009 8:00:19 AM PDT by Gamecock
Yep.
Are you suggesting that a nation of Jewish refugees called Israel could rise from the ashes of history and it would not be in conformance with God's will or his divine plan?
Is God not in control?
I am saying that the re-gathering and restoration of the Nation of Israel is something that God is going to do in the future.
God is certainly in control, but He is not governing right now - there’s a difference, in my opinion.
OK, so when a non-dispensationalist makes that claim, saying the remnant of Israel is that part which identifies with Christ and His Church, the problem is what exactly?
You didn’t ping Gamey, and he’s the one who started the thread.
Oversight.
You haven’t read Ryrie have you?
I have a few of his books including Dispensationalism Today, I just do not recall that particular language and his argument for the distinction you claim he’s making.
Is he on a coffee break from the Throne?
Who exactly is in charge, anyway? Obama?
"The olive tree is the place of privilege that was first occupied by the natural branches (the Jews). The wild branches are Gentiles who, because of the unbelief of Israel, now occupy the place of privilege. The root of the tree is the Abrahamic covenant that promised blessing to both Jew and Gentile through Christ."
Do you suggest that any biblical Christian would suggest that "On this rock I will build my Church" did not include the Jewish Apostles themselves?
Yes, and we determine that meaning from the Bible, not Scofield’s Notes.
It seems to me that grace and the law are mutually exclusive,
And you have pointed out the confusion rendered by the original version of Scofield’s Notes.
Salvation is entirely by grace. Thus the need for a covenant of grace. All men in all times have been saved by the gracious act of God in offering His Son for the sins of His people. That was true for Adam, Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David, Elijah, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, … everyone who found favor in the sight of the Lord.
The law was given to demonstrate to man their need for this covenant of grace. It was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. It could never save anyone, nor could anyone ever find favor in God’s sight simply by lawkeeping.
Dispensationalism is the confusing factor in the discussion. Some dispensationalists have tried to clean up their act. Scofield’s Notes were revised to undo the suggestion of salvation by lawkeeping in the original. Progressive dispensationalism goes even further in the direction of covenant theology. Progress is being made.
Not much of a shock that one would come out of WTS a anti-dispensationalist after that indoctrination.
About as much shock as a Dallas theological Seminary graduate leaving as a dispensationalist.
I think He is presently letting man walk after his own ways - let the evidence speak for itself - mankind has been reaping what it has been sowing. If God were governing right now, there would be a whole lot of folks who would be turned into toast on the spot as a result of their actions. The fact that they are not toast speaks to me of a God presently acting in grace, that is, granting unmerited favor to the underserving. I believe a time is coming when He again will indeed act in judgment, but alas, I don’t think it is so today.
Could Israel have been re-established in 1947 if it were not for the hand of God guiding the events?
To suggest that God did not have a hand in the re-establishment of "a" Nation called Israel in 1947 is to suggest that God is NOT in control of anything?
Is God in control in your life? Could you even take another breath if it were not in the will and divine plan of God for you to do so?
Yes, we are familiar with Darby's theories. Quoting him does not really help.
The question is, how do you distinguish between the remnant in the Church and some other remnant without being entirely artificial? E.g., why the need to divide “all Israel” up into distinct chunks?
Do you suggest that any biblical Christian would suggest that "On this rock I will build my Church" did not include the Jewish Apostles themselves?
Absolutely not. It is my argument that every Jewish believer in Jesus Christ is the remnant of Israel (“all Israel” if you will) and is being saved during the time in which we live. They are the Church, along with their gentile brethren. Natural and wild grafted into one root, Jesus Christ.
In fact you are making the non-dispensational case very well.
Not as many as you might think, with the overtaking of DTS by the progressive dispensationalists (aka covenant theology lite). I’m always amazed at the number of DTS grads in non-dispensational churches/positions. Many of the best and brightest.
It was a Ryrie Study Bible Quote...not Darby.
And I’m not including all of “modern Israel” as part of the remnant. The remnant are those in “that day” who will say “blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.”
God in control of everything means also the presidency of Obama. And of my not voting for him.
Do I believe that God could have used a corrupt, man-made organization such as the United Nations to accomplish His purpose? Of course! Do I believe that’s what happened in 1947-48? Not necessarily. Yes, a nation was created called Israel. Do I believe it was the Israel of God created back then? No. Will the Nation of Israel be created? Yes, and by God it will.
Did God decide what you were going to have for breakfast this morning? Don’t you think He has more important things with which to concern Himself?
God gives me the very breath of life. If He stopped that flow I would no longer be breathing.
If you are saying that God’s providence extends to the rise and fall of nations, absolutely not.
If by that you are contending that modern Israel is the fulfillment of specific Bible prophecies that can be proven, the answer is that such is not the teaching of the Bible.
“Re-establish” is really the wrong term. Modern Israel has little in common with biblical Israel. There is no direct connection.
Israel being constituted as a secular nation in 1947 is no different than the unification of Italy in the 19th century or the rise and fall of the Soviet Union. God orders the affairs of men according to His secret will and good pleasure.
Oops. Sorry. I found that quote listed on a very confusing page that seemed to attribute it to Darby.
And I’m not including all of “modern Israel” as part of the remnant. The remnant are those in “that day” who will say “blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.”
I’m still missing the part where Ryrie says that the remnant of Israel is part of the Church and the remnant of Israel is some future group. I don’t see it in that quote.
Many Jewish sects believe there is. The same with many Christians.
How do you "prove" that a time of God is upon us or is around the corner? Aside from direct revelation, all we have is the possibility of certain scriptures aligning.
The Apostles weren't aware of the resurrection until after it had occurred, even though Jesus told them many times.
At the same time, I, too, would counsel caution. I would also counsel knowledge of other perspectives. I am a sola scriptura kind of guy.
The bottom line is this: if we don't appeal to scripture as authoritative then to what do we appeal?
He says that both are part of the olive tree through Christ.
Is there any doubt that salvation through Christ automatically makes one part of the Church? (Baptism being the sign of initiation.)
He foreknew and foreordained it. If it were God's will that I should have had something else, I would have.
Don’t you think He has more important things with which to concern Himself?
He knows how many hairs you have on your head.
What I have for breakfast will affect me in some way for the rest of my life. If I have bacon and eggs every morning then it is probably God's will that I die young.
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