Do we see dangerous extremism, heresy, or any anti-ecumenical spirit in people like John Paul II and Mother Teresa? Would saints like Padre Pio and Mother Cabrini participate in Marian excess to the detriment of Jesus and his Church? Would Cristoph Cardinal Schönborn, general editor of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, use and defend the Co-redemptrix title if it were in any way unorthodox or theologically questionable? Would a Fatima visionary use, explain and defend the Co-redemptrix title six times in her last great writing, Calls from the Message of Fatima, when doing so would be offensive to the Holy See, who granted the imprimatur to her book? Or, even more, to Our Lady herself, with whom Sr. Lucia experienced direct mystical communications for decades?
Why, then, would we fear calling Mary the Co-redemptrix with Jesus, the divine Redeemer of humanity, when these pontiffs, saints, theologians and mystics for the past 700 years have done so?
John 14:6 et al.
res ipsa loquitur
The leadership of the Catholic church, if it’s not filled with pedophiles and active homosexuals, is filled with people who don’t understand Scripture and think Mary is Our Savior (well, along with Christ as an “also-ran”).
Yikes... it’s stuff like this that makes me want to nail a list to a door.
:-)
I like the biblical Mary. I do not like what the Roman Catholics have done to Mary. Mary never elevated herself or saying she was sinless, or spent any time developing a huge theology behind herself like the Roman church has done. She always pointed people’s attention off of her and back to Christ.
I believe the Roman church has spent so much time and effort behind this in part for guilt and to appease their women because they feel guilty for not allowing women priests. Which is ridiculous to feel that way, because the Bible is clear that only a certain quality of men can lead the people of God. They may feel guilty because they almost never remove men that have failed to be the kind of men qualified to lead the church. And in many cases, have known about problems and instead of dealing with them properly, they became enablers and just shuttled the problem around from parish to parish.
Theology is fun
You may all return to your life of blissful ignorance.
“What is your first response when you hear someone refer to the mother of Jesus Christ as the “Co-redemptrix”?
Extreme? Excessive pietism, even if well-intended? Heresy?”
Heresy
I’m not afraid of it. I just think it’s the wrong answer.
“This is my body...this is my blood...” is the heart of the sacrifice. “He’s alive” is the heart of the resurrection.
No matter what kind of allegorical parallelism anyone tries to heap on it, the bottom line is that Jesus alone is the one who actually accomplished it.
Mary - the evidence of scripture
The following lists the accounts of Jesus saying something to or about Mary:
The first 3 are different accounts of the same event.
“46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” - Matt 12
31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him. 32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.” 33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” - Mark 3
19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” - Luke 8
In this account, a woman sought to give honor to Mary:
“While he was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” — Luke 11
I’ll note here that the NAB footnotes say, “The beatitude in Luke 11:28 should not be interpreted as a rebuke of the mother of Jesus; see the note on Luke 8:21. Rather, it emphasizes (like Luke 2:35) that attentiveness to God’s word is more important than biological relationship to Jesus.”
There is the Wedding at Cana:
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. 3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”
6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.”...You have kept the good wine until now!”...12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days. — John 2
The Catholic footnote in the NAB: “4 [4] This verse may seek to show that Jesus did not work miracles to help his family and friends, as in the apocryphal gospels. Woman: a normal, polite form of address, but unattested in reference to one’s mother. Cf also John 19:26. How does your concern affect me?: literally, “What is this to me and to you?”—a Hebrew expression of either hostility (Judges 11:12; 2 Chron 35:21; 1 Kings 17:18) or denial of common interest (Hosea 14:9; 2 Kings 3:13). Cf Mark 1:24; 5:7 used by demons to Jesus. My hour has not yet come: the translation as a question (”Has not my hour now come?”), while preferable grammatically and supported by Greek Fathers, seems unlikely from a comparison with John 7:6, 30. The “hour” is that of Jesus’ passion, death, resurrection, and ascension (John 13:1).”
And finally, we have the scene at the cross:
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. — John 19
A few points seem significant:
1) Jesus never calls her “Mother”, let alone “Queen of Heaven’ or “Spouse of the Holy Spirit”. He only calls her “Woman”. Even Catholic scholars say, “Woman: a normal, polite form of address, but unattested in reference to one’s mother. Cf also John 19:26. How does your concern affect me?: literally, “What is this to me and to you?”—a Hebrew expression of either hostility (Judges 11:12; 2 Chron 35:21; 1 Kings 17:18) or denial of common interest (Hosea 14:9; 2 Kings 3:13). Cf Mark 1:24; 5:7 used by demons to Jesus.”
2) There is only one example in scripture of Mary being exalted by a human - Luke 11.28 Not only does Jesus not concur, but He actively denies the attention paid to Mary: “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”
3) Cana ends with this statement: “After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days.” This is one of several verses indicating tension between Jesus and his family - including his mother.
4) When Mary doubted Jesus
Mark 3 provides more detail than covered earlier.
“He came home. Again (the) crowd gathered, making it impossible for them even to eat. When his relatives heard of this they set out to seize him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”...His mother and his brothers arrived. Standing outside they sent word to him and called him.
A crowd seated around him told him, “Your mother and your brothers (and your sisters) are outside asking for you.” But he said to them in reply, “Who are my mother and (my) brothers?” And looking around at those seated in the circle he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. (For) whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”
It is also important to note what comes between the verse “When his relatives heard of this they set out to seize him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.” and “His mother and his brothers arrived.”
Between his family setting out “to seize them” because “he is out of his mind”, and their arrival, the scribes echo his family’s concerns - “The scribes who had come from Jerusalem said, ‘He is possessed by Beelzebul’...” - and it is here that Jesus teaches on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
And those who wish to exalt Mary ought to pay attention that it wasn’t just his “brothers” who came for him, but “His mother and his brothers”. The Catholic footnotes in the NAB state, “8 [20-35] Within the narrative of the coming of Jesus’ relatives (Mark 3:20-21) is inserted the account of the unbelieving scribes from Jerusalem who attributed Jesus’ power over demons to Beelzebul (Mark 3:22-30); see the note on Mark 5:21-43. There were those even among the relatives of Jesus who disbelieved and regarded Jesus as out of his mind (Mark 3:21). Against this background, Jesus is informed of the arrival of his mother and brothers [and sisters] (Mark 3:32). He responds by showing that not family ties but doing God’s will (35) is decisive in the kingdom; cf the note on Matthew 12:46-50.”
Even with all that happened at the birth of Jesus, Mary came to “seize him” fearing “he is out of his mind”. Arguably, Mary had less responsibility than the brothers, for John 7 says, “For not even his brothers believed in him. Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” After saying this, he remained in Galilee. But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private.”
HIs brothers refused to believe in John 7. Mary isn’t included with them (nor in Matthew 13), so it seems Mark 3 reflects her doubts and fears, not a fundamental rejection. In like manner, John the Baptist doubted, but didn’t deny. If even John the Baptist and Mary had times of doubts and fears, perhaps God understands our weakness when we do as well.
Mary recovered. She followed Jesus to the cross, and was listed in the believers meeting in Acts 1 (”14All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers”) - after which she drops from view.
There is no doubt Mary was blessed by God, but scripture shows it is wrong to exalt her. Follow her example if trusting God? Excellent! Contemplate her faithfulness? Excellent! Take comfort that her doubts didn’t destroy her? Yes.
But Jesus didn’t call her “Woman” because HE was disrespectful. The only reason Jesus would treat her thus is to emphasize her humanity - not Queen of Heaven, not the Holy Spirit’s Wife - but the human vessel chosen by God for His purposes.
great post, gonna save for later.
And here I just spent two days listening to various RCs insisting no Roman Catholic considers Mary a “Co-Redeemer.”
The Roman Catholic Church does not validate this, per B16.
There are fringes in every group who wishfully think of their own ideas.
This isn’t happening. B16 addressed it.
What they do mean when they refer to the Mother of Christ as the Co-redemptrix is that Mary uniquely cooperated with Jesus and entirely subordinate to and dependent upon Jesus, in the historic work of human Redemption." I read all of this as really saying that the work of Jesus Christ, with regard to human redemption, was somehow not enough. It says to me that, in order for human beings to be redeemed, Jesus' death and resurrection, and His victory over both death and sin, was insufficient.
Are You Afraid of Mary “Co-redemptrix”? >>>
no, not at all
Hail Mary Full of Grace
the New Eve
our Heavenly Mother