Posted on 11/17/2009 11:13:30 AM PST by Gamecock
I thought in 1814 the White House burned as a result of being hit by Congreve rockets. I didn’t know they were being wielded by “Canadians.” Are you sure?
I thought in 1814 the White House burned as a result of being hit by Congreve rockets. I didn’t know they were being wielded by “Canadians.” Are you sure?
http://www.pc.gc.ca/lhn-nhs/on/fortgeorge/edu/edu8/a.aspx gives the timeline of events in 1814. "August 24 British burn Washington Major General Robert Ross and Rear Admiral Sir George Cockburn take an assault force of nearly 4,000 British soldiers up Chesapeake Bay. The British force marches to Bladensburg (north east of Washington) and meet with very little resistance. The American Commander Brigadier General Winder who had been removed from the active theatre of war after his defeat at Stoney Creek finds himself in charge of the American forces. The American militia that gather are of comparable size, but are poorly organised and led. Winder pulls out almost as soon as the engagement begins and leaves the road to Washington clear for the British to advance. That night they arrive in Washington and the military and government buildings are burned. The White House is badly damaged."
If you believed that stuff, would YOU admit it?
The identical thing can be said of the followers of the church of Rome, both laity and ecclesia. I won't bore you with examples, which are legion. I don't see where Modernism or theological liberalism is playing favorites, or how the church of Rome has been spared.
Since Jesus told us that He would be forever with His Church, and the numbers are dropping, is this a sign that the Reformed churches are outside of the Church that Jesus referred to?
I don't know, is it a sign? Once again, does Christ play the role of an Accountant in terms of church membership? What's your authority on thinking that He does?
I'm just putting this out there as a point, not to be contentious. If one plots the numbers of those Protestants / Reformed who believe in no divorce, no abortion, no homosexuality, and no female ordination as a percentage of the totality of Protestants / Reformed in the United States, the curve asymptotically approaches zero.
Funny you should say that. I went to two very "modern" universities, and the Roman Catholics I met there (and in H.S.) were as liberal in their social beliefs as any present-day Mainline Protestant. Not to be contentious, but I don't see where RCs are immune to this sort of evil. Just look at the recent debacle at Notre Shame.
If the population of the real Reformed churches keeps dropping, and they really are the church that Jesus referred to, what happens when the membership is no longer even self sustaining?
Although we have no guarantees that this trend towards error in Reformed churches won't continue, we also have no guarantee that it will. I pray that God will turn this around.
This is from Frank Winter's _The First Golden Age of Rocketry_, p.143:
The Baltimore Telegraph of 27 August 1814 reported that "we have been informed that the Presidential Palace [i.e., the White House] was destroyed by a Congreve rocket and that all the public buildings have been levelled to the ground."
well, if they believe, they should admit it, or repent and be saved.
I never made premise #4 so your syllogism is faulty.
Again, the 4th grade syllogism doesn’t disprove a Reformed theodicy.
Calvin b-slapped the appropriately named Romanist Pighuis nearly 500 years ago and we still have Romanists playing with 4th grade syllogisms like children playing with blocks gleefully thinking they have trapped the Reformed.
You have 500 years of arguments to catch up on.
So you do believe in Free-will then?
Yes. All people choose what they most desire.
If you have Free-will, then God does not force you to do something and God has not predestined you to do something. You then take responsibility for every one of your actions, it is not God made me do it. Note that omniscience (which God has) is not the same as predestination (which God doesn’t do, or that would negate our free-will).
The identical thing can be said of the followers of the church of Rome, both laity and ecclesia. I won't bore you with examples, which are legion. I don't see where Modernism or theological liberalism is playing favorites, or how the church of Rome has been spared.
That's easy. Look at the Catechism. Individuals may fall away, but the Church continues on in uninterrupted Apostolic succession. The cafeteria is closed.
Since Jesus told us that He would be forever with His Church, and the numbers are dropping, is this a sign that the Reformed churches are outside of the Church that Jesus referred to?
I don't know, is it a sign? Once again, does Christ play the role of an Accountant in terms of church membership? What's your authority on thinking that He does?
Well, let's look at it this way. If there are no Presbyterian Reformed members left on earth, is that the end of the church as understood by the children of the Reformed?
I'm just putting this out there as a point, not to be contentious. If one plots the numbers of those Protestants / Reformed who believe in no divorce, no abortion, no homosexuality, and no female ordination as a percentage of the totality of Protestants / Reformed in the United States, the curve asymptotically approaches zero.
Funny you should say that. I went to two very "modern" universities, and the Roman Catholics I met there (and in H.S.) were as liberal in their social beliefs as any present-day Mainline Protestant. Not to be contentious, but I don't see where RCs are immune to this sort of evil. Just look at the recent debacle at Notre Shame.
Excellent point. The US branch of the Catholic Church during the 50s to the 90s were as guilty as any NT church of allowing their congregations to slide in terms of personal beliefs. The rest of the worldwide Church (with the exception of some of Europe), did not. This is the backsliding of churches that Paul addressed in several Epistles, and which has happened to us as well.
If the population of the real Reformed churches keeps dropping, and they really are the church that Jesus referred to, what happens when the membership is no longer even self sustaining?
Although we have no guarantees that this trend towards error in Reformed churches won't continue, we also have no guarantee that it will. I pray that God will turn this around.
I pray that God will give us the means and the determination to turn it all around. After all, it is our souls that are at stake, not God's.
Actually, it does. Canada was not declared a separate country until 1867 and was considered a British colony until then. The impetus was the threat of another undeclared invasion of the US. And, indeed, the US kept invasion plans up to date until well into WWII, and possibly for quite some time afterwards.
The Baltimore Telegraph of 27 August 1814 reported that "we have been informed that the Presidential Palace [i.e., the White House] was destroyed by a Congreve rocket and that all the public buildings have been levelled to the ground."
Our history does not mention rockets of any kind that I've been able to find, but it does kind of allude to the fact that the Nova Scotians who engaged in this punative expedition ran out of rum before they ran out of targets and decided to return home for a nightcap.
An example that I would use is Adam. Adam had what you would equate with as "free will". Adam went around cultivating the garden, he named all the animals, and God created a wife for him. While some would suggest this time was short, I would suggest Adam probably dwelt for many, many years in the garden. Naming all the animals would have taken some fair amount of time in itself. Yet Adam, in all this time, did not sin. It wasn't until God introduced the law ("You may eat of any tree in the garden but of this one tree you shall not eat.") that Adam found that he could not resist the temptation to go against God's command.
There is either God's will or man's will. There is no middle ground of "free will". It is one or the other. "Free will" implies that Adam could have just said, "No, I'm not going to do that." The problem is that when man is presented with the choice of being obedient to God's law or disobedient, we will choose to be disobedient. When the law came into existence, we died as Romans teaches us.
I will caveat this discussion with man does not have "free will" until he is set free by our Lord Jesus. Afterward man is free to follow his will (which will result in chastisement and punishment) or God's will. Jonah is an example of this.
I don't believe God directs sinners' hands to sin.
God directs the hands of everyone, believers and unbelievers. All God has to do is withdraw Himself from us for us to go astray. Christians fail to recognize this divine concept and realize we must constantly cling to our Lord Jesus. I will say it is a very difficult concept to achieve.
If we have free-will and of our own will choose to sin, yes, we deserve punishment.
Can you name someone who doesn't deserve punishment?
That is the issue -- we believe that Christ came for all humanity -- Jews and Gentiles alike.
That is not what Christ said. Christ stated very plainly that He came to seek and to save that what He lost. If you believe that He does not fail, then you must believe that every person who is rescued is one that was lost by Christ. The rest are not.
This doesn't square with your earlier statement that you believe in Free-will. If you do believe in Free-will, then Hitler willfully committed genocide. If you don't, then you believe that God directed Hitler's hand to commit genocide and also that God directed ALL sinners hands to commit sin.
I would suggest that I'm not clear or you're misinterpreting what I said. Hitler committed willful genocide. It was in God's power to stop him but He didn't to effect His plan. There is God's will and there is man's will. Man's will is going to do evil. God's will is going to do good. God allowed Hitler's will to do evil so that God could bring about good. Man cannot do God's will without His bringing it about.
I think the historical evidence points to the contrary. There are many teachings that are in the Church today that were never part of the early church. And there have been some things, like paying for indulgence, the Church would simply like to forget.
If you read through the Church fathers and the beliefs of The Church
I have read a number of works by the early Church fathers and I'm somewhat acquainted with the beliefs of the Church.
Thanks to many protesters for their false statements, I started reading through The Bible and the works of the Church doctors and commentaries through the centuries and guess what -- The Church's stand is vindicated.
That's very fine. In the end we must all give an accounting of what we believe and why we believe it. I would hate to have someone say that this is what they were taught.
No, the Canon says that God initiates the action. Where Catholics and I differ is that a Catholic would say that once God initiates the action they can refuse Him. I say that if God initiates the action, you certainly are not going to refuse Him.
What about Lucifer? Was there no action afforded towards him? What about Adam and Eve? What about Judas Iscariot, chosen one of the Twelve?
Well said! I hadn't quite thought of it that way.
I understand why you think that must be the case but there are perfectly plausible ways in which you can have free-will and God predestined what was to be. They are not mutually exclusive.
You then take responsibility for every one of your actions, it is not God made me do it.
Agreed
Note that omniscience (which God has) is not the same as predestination
Agreed
(which God doesn’t do, or that would negate our free-will).
That's question begging.
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