Posted on 12/04/2009 4:17:34 PM PST by Colofornian
As we continue our discussion about the Book of Mormon translation, some members may be troubled that the process doesn't match their conceptions of how they thought the process worked. For members who were unaware of the seer stone in the hat, at least two questions or concerns may arise: 1) Is it strange that Joseph used a stone in a hat? 2) Why have we have always been told that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim?
To answer the first question we might also ask: Is it strange that a man could rise from the dead, walk on water, heal the lame, create the heavens, and answer the prayers of billions of people? There are basically two kinds of non-Mormons who reject LDS beliefs: A) those who believe that there is no God (or that if such a being exists he doesn't interact with humans), and B) those who believe that a supreme being exists and has communicated with mankind.
For those who don't believe in a God, all supernatural and miraculous events are automatically brushed aside as imaginary, impossible, etc. All spiritual experiences are seen as "strange," superstitious, and possibly the result of the evolutionary process of the mind. Joseph's translation process is just as strange as any other supernatural claim.
For those who believe that God can and has communicated with mankind, it seems hypocritical to summarily dismiss Joseph's method of translation because it doesn't fit with pre-conceived views of how God communicates. As with all spiritual claims, the only way to know if they come from God is to ask God for a witness.
For Mormons who think the seer stone in the hat is strange compared to a translation through the Nephite Interpreters, one might ask: Why is a translation through a stone outside of a hat (the Nephite Interpreters) acceptable, while a translation through a stone inside of a hat (the seer stone) is unusual? It should be obvious that if someone finds the one normal and the other odd, that such a perspective is based on nothing more than pre-conceived assumptions.
Number 2: Why have we have always been told that Joseph translated the book with the Urim and Thummim? The answer is simple: The early Saints referred to both the Interpreters and the seer stone as the "Urim and Thummim." The real problem is not that the seer stone is called the Urim and Thummim, but rather that when most modern members hear the phrase they typically envision the Interpreters. Why is this? The critics claim that most members don't know about the stone and the hat because the church hides the information. This claim, however, is false.
That Joseph used a seer stone in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon has been mentioned in several official church publications such as the Improvement Era, the Ensign, and even the Friend by such people as B.H. Roberts, Richard Lloyd Anderson, Neal A. Maxwell and Russell M. Nelson. It stretches the imagination to believe that the church would hide this information if it has been included in official church magazines.
So why are some members unfamiliar with the translation process? The answer is a bit more complex. This topic and the frequent but false claim that the church "hides its history from members" will be discussed in greater depth in a future issue.
Number 3: Why isn't the seer stone used today? In Joseph's world, he and many of his contemporaries believed that God could reveal things through a seer stone. Joseph's mind was already open and prepared for revelation and a translation process through the Urim and Thummin. The Lord utilized Joseph's worldview to help restore the gospel. If Joseph had been skeptical of seer stones, he may not have been receptive to translating the Book of Mormon.
As Joseph continued to receive more revelations, he discovered that the seer stone was merely an elementary tool for teaching him how to focus his thoughts on the things of God. By the time he was working on the Inspired Version of the New Testament, he no longer needed the seer stone. Joseph apparently told Orson Pratt that the Lord gave him the Urim and Thummim "when he was inexperienced in the Spirit of inspiration. But now he had advanced so far that he understood the operations of that Spirit and did not need the assistance of that instrument," (Richard L. Anderson, BYU Studies 24:4, 489-560).
>>> Might want to re-think the inanimate object analogy....The “Burning Bush” and “Mene Tikel Upharasin(sp?)”, that writing on the wall stuff, are but 2 incidents that come to mind.
When it comes to delivering God’s message or word, there is no biblical basis or example where God directed someone to find something that was hidden to reveal something that could not be read. The closest example we can find in the bible of using an object to divine God’s will was the casting of lots... but even that practice was never set down as a commandment or direction from God to do so. And, the only words that the casting lots was intended was to “divinate” from God was a “yes” or a “no”.
If Joseph Smith’s “translation process” was from God, then we would see similar forms of delivery set forth in the bible. There is none. Joseph Smith stands alone. He is as alone as Morman himself... a name which means exactly that... “Man Alone”.
God says in His word that SCRIPTURE interprets scripture. Not some seer stone. That means that a doctrine or a truth about God’s word will be confirmed or refuted in other biblical passages. It’s the reason we have 4 gospels pretty much telling the same story... for confirmation.
The only thing that lines up with the bible in the BOM are the passages that were plagiarized word for word directly from it.
lol next you guys will be jumping on Jehova witnesses
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Well, if the JW’s start showing up pushing their presidential candidate and cult, we may.
Oh wait...JW’s are apolitical and pacifists. This is a conservative site, doubt it will happen.
GROAN! Careful, comments like that might get you sent to “outer darkness”.
If my comments haven't gotten me sent to the outer darkness by lds, nothing will.
ROFL. What is THAT from?
I forgot about them. Too atheistic for my tastes, but funny nevertheless.
Agreed, but every now and then something good pops up.
LOL! This Mormon gal can’t stand Mitt and was SO happy he didn’t get elected. As for the religion part, I try to live a good life. My personal belief is to encourage people to find God in their own way. I wouldn’t want people to shove their religion down my throat, and I want to give others the same courtesy. Belief systems are so personal. The religion that I do come out strongly against is The Church of Obama. LOL! I don’t want to fight with people, I just want to try to love them like Jesus said. (Although, I find it challenging with libs. LOL
I think that deep down, other than differences of philosophy and opinion, we are ALL good, conservative people here on FR. We all want what is best for our country. We love our freedom and will fight to keep it. We have a strong moral compass. I think of us as a family here. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree, but we love and respect each other.
I consider myself so blessed to be able to learn things from the many good people here on FR. I truly treasure ALL of you. May God bless you and keep you. Have a very Merry CHRISTmas!!!!!! BTW, I love your FR name!!!!
Godzilla, you are too precious to be sent to outer darkness!
its for sure they dont believe in defending the constitution ...
what do mormons really think about this?
what do mormons really think about this?
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Many either don’t know or think about it.
The usual picture seen of Joseph Smith “translating” the Book of Mormon, he is sitting at a table, with the “golden plates” in front of him and looks like he is reading them. That is the image MOST LDS have of the translation process. Few question it or anything else the “leaders” tell them.
I was LDS for over a year before I heard about the use of a “seer stone”. When I asked about it, I was told that the plates were used but some of it came as “direct revelation”, meaning God told Joseph Smith what to write down EXACTLY.
And at the time, that was an acceptable answer. Only later, after I discovered that there were almost 4,000 changes to the Book of Mormon (not just spelling and punctuation, but word changes, verses taken out and added), that I had an “ah ha” moment.
If God HAD dictated the BoM to Smith, then there would have been NO need for any changes.
That realization was part of what led me out of Mormonism.
Hope this helps.
yes it does...thanks for your reply
That must be one, big fly!
Personally; I would have used a Dung Beetle.
JS was never in UTAH.
Brigham Young did all of that!
Can you say BaHa'i?
http://www.bahai.org/faq/facts/bahai_faith
More like the SLC branch of MORMONism and the RLDS branch think of each other.
When the FOUNDER died, there was a power struggle to see who got to be the 'true' group and they split apart.
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