Posted on 12/31/2009 12:59:38 PM PST by streetpreacher
You wrote:
“First, the NEED of man is to be saved. It is not the goal of many men at all - for wide is the gate that leads to death.”
No, once again we see you don’t understand. Man was created by God. He made us to be drawn to Him, to seek Him out. Thus, our built in goal is to be saved. Some, perhaps many, resist that, but that is built in us and that fact can’t be changed
“Just because we were created with God’s Glory in mind - and few will serve God’s purpose there - doesn’t mean human institutions comprised primarily of sinful humans exist to serve God.”
Again, we see you misunderstand. All things were created to serve God. The fact that man distorts things is another issue entirely. What you are saying is that God made things that He INTENDED not to serve Him. I know you don’t mean that, but that is what you are saying whether you mean it or not.
“You are the one who lacks a Christian worldview - for the Christian view is that the large majority of men are in rebellion against God, and their institutions with them.”
(sigh) As you have done throughout the thread, you are confusing one thing with another. I fully recognize that humanity is in rebellion against God. That doesn’t change the fact that God made man to serve Him. You are - once again without intending it - that God made us to NOT serve Him. Nope. You are the one with the incorrect worldview.
“We are aliens in a foreign land. We don’t belong here. We answer a different king, and all kings are jealous. From the perspective of secular government, Christians are rebels and traitors. Government will never love Christians.”
(sigh) So, you don’t believe in standing up for truth? I simply won’t settle for a secular government. You will.
“No, the common good of rebels is unity with and control by the rebels...and man is a rebel against God.”
Unbelievable. The common good of all people is to serve God. How can you accuse of not having a Christian worldview and then a few lines further you actually make the incredible statement that the common GOOD of rebels is to continue their rebellion? So, if you have kids, and they beat your wife, it’s their common good to beat her again, right? And the common good of murderers is to murder again, right? No wonder our country is so messed up with thinking like that all over the place. And the saddest part is that you probably think you’re actually making sense.
“Only if Christians are a majority will the ‘common good’ allow the gospel to flourish.”
Maybe. How are we going to get to that point without working and praying for it NOW.
“No society or state chooses to serve God.”
False. The states of old Europe before Protestant Revolution did so - certainly not perfectly, but they did so nonetheless.
“In the end, all are rebels against Him. States have no soul. The reflect the souls of the majority, and the majority are in rebellion against God. That is why they rage.”
But they don’t have to rage against God since Jesus came. And - as shown abundantly in the Old Testament - states can be blamed by God for their actions - almost as if they had a soul. It can work the other way too.
“Man was created by God. He made us to be drawn to Him, to seek Him out. Thus, our built in goal is to be saved.”
Nope.
As scripture says, “For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” — Romans 3
You say, “All things were created to serve God. The fact that man distorts things is another issue entirely. What you are saying is that God made things that He INTENDED not to serve Him.”
Nope. God made things that might not serve Him, so that He could make things that willingly chose to obey Him. God did not force any of us to disobey - we did that on our own.
“I fully recognize that humanity is in rebellion against God. That doesn’t change the fact that God made man to serve Him. You are - once again without intending it - that God made us to NOT serve Him.”
Nope. I’m not a Calvinist, although I sometimes defend him against unfair attacks. God doesn’t force us to obey, nor does He force us to disobey.
“So, if you have kids, and they beat your wife, it’s their common good to beat her again, right? And the common good of murderers is to murder again, right?”
That is how REBELS define the common good. THEY say the common good is to continue in sin. The Afghans define the common good as having the right to kill their wives and daughters. That is evil, but that is the ‘common good’ they seek - BECAUSE they are rebels. People do not seek what is TRULY good for them because they do not want it. We are sinners. Some of us are saved and become new creations, but sinners do not seek out God or desire to obey Him.
““No society or state chooses to serve God.” / False. The states of old Europe before Protestant Revolution did so - certainly not perfectly, but they did so nonetheless.”
Nope. They sought their own advancement in power. Popes and kings sought power, not holiness. The Holy Roman Empire was neither.
“And - as shown abundantly in the Old Testament - states can be blamed by God for their actions - almost as if they had a soul.”
The Old Testament has PEOPLE being punished for sin. It wasn’t the state decisions that resulted in punishment, but the sin of the people living there...and even then, God gave them much mercy and delayed punishment until they were ripe for it. Why did God judge Babylon, for example?
“6 I was angry with my people; I profaned my heritage;
I gave them into your hand; you showed them no mercy;
on the aged you made your yoke exceedingly heavy. 7You said, “I shall be mistress forever,” so that you did not lay these things to heart or remember their end.” - Isaiah 47 (chosen at random - I started in Isaiah 45 and looked for the first prophecy against a foreign nation...)
You wrote:
“Nope”
Yep.
“As scripture says, “For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” — Romans 3”
That in no way overturns my point. Again, you are confusing one thing with another. The fact that we are not on our own righteous does not mean that we don’t have a built-in desire to be saved.
I really have to thank you. I don’t mean this as an insult, but you have shown me - perhaps more conclusively than any situation I have ever seen - as to why Protestantism is dangerous to orthodox theology. I see no indication that many of the most basic concepts of theology are part of your understanding of the nature of man or God.
“Nope.”
Yes. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that man was not created with a desire to be saved (without which we would have no conscience and no sense of sin) and then turn around and claim that God did not intend to create things which would not serve Him. That is a logical impossiblity. It also is just plain nuts.
“God made things that might not serve Him, so that He could make things that willingly chose to obey Him. God did not force any of us to disobey - we did that on our own.”
That’s what I have been saying. But that fact does not change the fact that we have a built-in desire to be saved. That’s why we have a sense of sin.
“Nope. I’m not a Calvinist, although I sometimes defend him against unfair attacks.”
It doesn’t matter. You have worked yourself into a logical corner.
“God doesn’t force us to obey, nor does He force us to disobey.”
EXACTLY. And that isn’t what we’re talking about anyway. What we’re talking about is the FACT that we have a built-in desire to be saved.
“That is how REBELS define the common good. THEY say the common good is to continue in sin.”
And that’s what YOU have been saying. Now you are finally beginning to make some distinctions. The fact that rebels decide to live like rebels does not change the fact that they have a built-in desire to be saved. The one does not negate the other.
“That is evil, but that is the ‘common good’ they seek - BECAUSE they are rebels.”
It isn’t the common good. Stop saying sin is the common good. At least now you’re using quote marks. Why not just get it right from the beginning and acknowledge that there is a common good even if people refuse to honor it?
“People do not seek what is TRULY good for them because they do not want it.”
Wrong. They DO want it, but what they do is try to appease that desire with worldly counterfeits. You have it EXACTLY backwards. If people truly never wanted what was good for them then NO ONE would ever turn toward God. And before you say, “Well, they do that because of God’s grace,” remember that grace BUILD ON NATURE rather than changes it.
“We are sinners. Some of us are saved and become new creations, but sinners do not seek out God or desire to obey Him.”
False. First of all, are you a sinner or not? I am. I seek out God and always have. Are you claiming NOT TO BE A SINNER? I can tell you right now - even if I can’t read your heart - YOU are a sinner. Just like the rest of us. You’ve been a sinner for a very long time - yet you turned toward God. The idea that a sinner can’t seek out God or doesn’t ever desire to obey God means anyone who is a sinner (pssst... that’s all of us!) is doomed. Again, you have painted yourself into a logic corner from which there is no escape.
“Nope. They sought their own advancement in power.”
All of them? Even the martyrs? David and Solomon didn’t? Yet Israel was a nation sanctioned by God Himself.
“Popes and kings sought power, not holiness.”
All of them? Come on.
“The Holy Roman Empire was neither.”
(sigh) Neither what? There are three things there: Holy, Roman, Empire. And what of it? It was holier than any country today since it honored Christ everywhere. We can’t even pray in our schools today without harrassment yet the HRE’s schools were ALL Christian institutions.
“The Old Testament has PEOPLE being punished for sin.”
Yeah, and?
“It wasn’t the state decisions that resulted in punishment, but the sin of the people living there...”
EXACTLY. The people. We are responsible. We are responsible NOW.
“and even then, God gave them much mercy and delayed punishment until they were ripe for it. Why did God judge Babylon, for example?”
More important, why did God spare Nineveh in Jonah?
You really need to study scripture more because you do not understand how God created man with a desire to know Him.
You need to study more, to understand that humans do not seek out God. We are SINNERS.
“And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.” - Ephesians 2
Feel free to show me where scripture teaches we have a built-in desire to be saved. You keep asserting it, but not showing where God agrees with your assessment. God desires that all men repent, yet only a small minority do - why is this if we all desire God?
“You can’t say that man was not created with a desire to be saved (without which we would have no conscience and no sense of sin) and then turn around and claim that God did not intend to create things which would not serve Him. That is a logical impossiblity. It also is just plain nuts.”
If man has a free will - required if we are to be sons and not just servants - then we have the ability to reject God.
Again - you keep asserting that we all have the desire to seek God and be saved. You even write, “I seek out God and always have.”
God call you a liar. “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” and “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”
“And before you say, “Well, they do that because of God’s grace,” remember that grace BUILD ON NATURE rather than changes it.”
Wrong again. Grace does not improve us. Grace transforms us. Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” God revealed to Ezekial, “And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
You write, “The idea that a sinner can’t seek out God or doesn’t ever desire to obey God means anyone who is a sinner (pssst... that’s all of us!) is doomed. Again, you have painted yourself into a logic corner from which there is no escape.”
Nope. I didn’t look for God. God looked for me. “According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope...” 1 Peter 1.
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation...”
God initiated everything. I accepted his revelation. I did not claw my way to salvation. I wasn’t looking for it. I didn’t seek God. And God says NO ONE seeks Him - not even you.
But to claim that all men want to be saved by the true God is completely anti-biblical.
I'm wondering how vlad thinks that instituting the moral law into State law will save anyone?
You make an excellent distinction between seeking to worship something and wanting to be saved by God.
Most men want to be justified for what they have done, rather than what God has done.
This is rather simple; we rest upon the promises of God for everything, including our salvation. God promises us salvation in His word. Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. It's not difficult. As a Calvinist, or even as a Protestant, one simply accepts God's promise as a fact.
Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
We trust in God. He will make it good.
However, if you are looking to the Church to provide you with any assurances about salvation, you won't find them in the Roman Catholic Church. They can't decide who made it until it goes through a committee.
I might note that the more you don't trust in scripture, the less likely you will believe you are saved.
Amen. I'm reminded of the "man" who visited with Joshua was going forth to battle. He asked who side is he on, to which the angel replied neither but on the side of the Lord. Christians dabble too much into social ills when it's focus should be on establishing the church. I don't see any Christian value in distributing back packs for children if you can't distribute bibles.
I recall the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. When there is no fear of God in the people, the gospel loses all sense in stirring moral behavior in people. There is only one remedy in this case-destruction. That is why God commanded the Israelites to destroy the Cannanites. Living among them would bring corruption (which is what happened). There was no hope of redemption.
You wrote:
“You need to study more, to understand that humans do not seek out God. We are SINNERS.”
That’s WHY we seek out God. And if we had no desire to seek God, we could not even know we were sinners.
And nothing in Ephesians 2 says anything against what I said.
Look at the VERY NAME of John Piper’s website: http://www.desiringgod.org/
“Feel free to show me where scripture teaches we have a built-in desire to be saved.”
First, show me a verse that says everything has to be in the Bible. Can you do that?
Then look up Deuteronomy 4:29-31; 1 Chronicles 28:9; Psalms 63:1-2; 84:3; Proverbs 8:17; Song of Songs 3:1-4; Isaiah 26:9; Isaiah 55:6; Matthew 7:7; Acts 17:26-28.
“You keep asserting it, but not showing where God agrees with your assessment. God desires that all men repent, yet only a small minority do - why is this if we all desire God?”
Because we often go against what is best for us. Ask Tiger Woods about that.
“If man has a free will - required if we are to be sons and not just servants - then we have the ability to reject God.”
Yes. But that doesn’t mean we weren’t given the desire to be His Sons. No one would come to Him if they didn’t have a desire to do it!
“Again - you keep asserting that we all have the desire to seek God and be saved. You even write, “I seek out God and always have.””
Yes.
“God call you a liar.”
No. You are calling me a liar and you’re twisting God’s word to do it. How sad. Look again at the verses I posted above and know that YOU are the one calling God a liar.
So you think St. Paul didn’t believe that people desired happiness?
“Wrong again. Grace does not improve us. Grace transforms us.”
I am not wrong. We do not cease to have concupiscence after conversion. Thus, grace builds on our nature. It does not destroy the fact that we are purely human on this earth.
“Nope. I didn’t look for God. God looked for me. “According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope...” 1 Peter 1.”
And if you had no desire for happiness, no desire at all to know or love or serve God in you you could not have responded to God’s call because He does not force Himself on people. Grace builds upon nature it does not destroy it.
“God initiated everything. I accepted his revelation.”
Which you could not do unless you had been built to receive Him. That’s why you were created in His image and likeness after all.
“I did not claw my way to salvation. I wasn’t looking for it. I didn’t seek God. And God says NO ONE seeks Him - not even you.”
St. Paul - nor the Holy Spirit - meant that we have no desire for God or happiness. If we had no such desire we could never have it, ever.
As Proverbs 16:4 says, “The Lord hath made all things for Himself.”
You wrote:
“But to claim that all men want to be saved by the true God is completely anti-biblical.”
I said men want to be saved. I don’t think I said “men want to be saved by the true God” as if they all knew Him.
“I’m wondering how vlad thinks that instituting the moral law into State law will save anyone?”
I don’t. I do believe, however, that a society that aims at the common good will be more likely to have a people which more readily turns its attention to God and serving Him.
Why?
You wrote:
“Why?”
For the same reason you aim at the common good in your own household. Are Protestants really this clueless that this needs to be explained in any more detail? Sorry, I’m not wasting my time explaining common sense about the common good at this point.
How does aiming for the common good turn your attention to God and serving him?
You wrote:
“How does aiming for the common good turn your attention to God and serving him?”
How does indulging in sinfullness and selfishness turn your attention away from God and serving Him?
How does indulging in sinfullness and selfishness turn your attention away from to God and serving Him?
Correct?
Just want to be clear before I reply.
Nope. What I posted is what I wanted to post.
OK.
That was non-responsive to my question.
Asking a question is not a response to a question.
“First, show me a verse that says everything has to be in the Bible.”
I’ve shown you verses that directly contradict your assertion that men seek God. That is more to the point.
“Look at the VERY NAME of John Piper’s website: http://www.desiringgod.org/";
What does that have to do with anything?
“Then look up Deuteronomy 4:29-31; 1 Chronicles 28:9; Psalms 63:1-2; 84:3; Proverbs 8:17; Song of Songs 3:1-4; Isaiah 26:9; Isaiah 55:6; Matthew 7:7; Acts 17:26-28.”
Let’s look together...and I type this without having looked first...
“27And the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD will drive you. 28And there you will serve gods of wood and stone, the work of human hands, that neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 But from there you will seek the LORD your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.” - Dt 4
So we find that those who belong to God will be disciplined if they go astray, yet He will bring them back. Hardly the same as teaching that all men seek God!
“9”And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.” - 1 Chron 28
So we find that the king chosen to be in the lineage of Jesus is promised that if he seeks, he will find. Hardly the same as teaching that all men seek God!
“A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah.
1O God, you are my God; earnestly I seek you;
my soul thirsts for you;
my flesh faints for you,
as in a dry and weary land where there is no water.” - Psalms 63
So we see that David, a man after God’s own heart, a man anointed at God’s direction, hungered for God...as do those born again. Hardly the same as teaching that all men seek God!
“2My soul longs, yes, faints
for the courts of the LORD;
my heart and flesh sing for joy
to the living God.” - Psalms 84:2
Those who follow God hunger for him. Hardly the same as teaching that all men seek God!
“I [wisdom] love those who love me,
and those who seek me diligently find me.” - Prov 8
So wisdom can be found by those who seek her. Hardly the same as teaching that all men seek God!
I could go on, but why bother...you are 0-5 so far! Those given a new heart WILL hunger and thirst for God. Those who are born again WILL desire God. But while we are rebels, we need God but do not seek Him. What part of “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God” do you not understand?
This isn’t subtle. This isn’t a hidden teaching. It is explicit.
“Thus, grace builds on our nature.”
We have the same intelligence, etc after conversion as before. But God replaces a heart of stone with a heart of flesh. As Martin Luther put it, “That is why faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law; faith it is that brings the Holy Spirit through the merits of Christ. The Spirit, in turn, renders the heart glad and free, as the law demands. Then good works proceed from faith itself.”
“And if you had no desire for happiness, no desire at all to know or love or serve God in you you could not have responded to God’s call because He does not force Himself on people.”
When men are confronted by God, they can reject him - as they rejected Jesus Himself - or they can believe He is who He claims. When the serpent was lifted up, they could look or turn away.
But we do not seek God. We do not deserve his grace. We have no good within us. We need the new birth, a new heart, with God law written on it, and only God can give that to us. The debate between Calvinists and Free Will types seems to be whether we are given a new heart when we believe, or we are given a new heart and then believe. That may be an oversimplification, since I’m not a learned theologian...but this Free Will Baptist would never claim we seek God out, or do good in advance to prepare us for salvation.
And as wrong as it is to suggest we are all seeking God, it is even more wrong to suggest that the institutions of unsaved men can or will advance the will of God by their design! God’s will shall prevail, but not because unsaved men or governments or states seek to advance it!
You wrote:
“OK. That was non-responsive to my question.”
It was responsive, just not an answer.
“Asking a question is not a response to a question.”
Sure it is. It just isn’t an answer. I asked a question that shares something with yours: the answer is so obvious that the question need never be asked.
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