Posted on 12/31/2009 12:59:38 PM PST by streetpreacher
That is a fair point. The Westminster Confessions states pretty much the same point which is why we often talk about the perseverance of the faith-those who persever have truly been called by God rather than once saved always saved (which has theological difficulties).
The question PetroniusMaximus is asking is how do I really know that I'm saved if I don't know that, in the very end, I will persevere-like your Buddhist friend. I would suggest there are tests for us to see if we are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5-8) the most important is scripture and an active prayer life.
Please note what the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith says about Assurance of salvation:
Although temporary believers, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions that they are in the favour of God and in a state of salvation, such a hope on their part will perish. Yet those who truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, and who endeavour to walk in all good conscience before Him, may be certainly assured in this life that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. And such a hope shall never make them ashamed.
This assurance is not merely a conjectural persuasion nor even a probable persuasion based upon a fallible hope. It is an infallible assurance of faith founded on the blood and righteousness of Christ revealed in the Gospel. It is also founded upon the inward evidence of those graces of the Spirit in connection with definite promises made in the Scriptures, and also on the testimony of the Spirit of adoption who witnesses with our spirits that we are the children of God, and who uses the experience of assurance to keep our hearts both humble and holy.
This infallible assurance is not so joined to the essence of faith that it is an automatic and inevitable experience. A true believer may wait long and fight with many difficulties before he becomes a partaker of it. Yet, being enabled by the spirit to know the things which are freely given to him by God, he may, without any extraordinary revelation attain this assurance by using the means of grace in the right way. Therefore it is the duty of every one to give the utmost diligence to make his calling and election sure, so that his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness for carrying out the duties of obedience. These duties are the natural fruits of assurance, for it is far from inclining men to slackness.
True believers may have the assurance of their salvation in various ways shaken, diminished, or intermitted. This may be because of their negligence in preserving it, or by their falling into some special sin which wounds the conscience and grieves the Spirit, or by some sudden or forceful temptation, or by God's withdrawing the light of His countenance, and causing even those who fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light. Yet, believers are never left without the seed of God and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren that sincerity of heart and that conscience about their spiritual duty. Out of these things, by the operation of the Spirit, their assurance can in due time be revived, and in the meantime the presence of these graces preserves them from utter despair.
Thanks for all of your insightful comments. I have found this to be an edifying thread.
They were asking about the Kingdom of Heaven.
What do you think that means?
“The question PetroniusMaximus is asking is how do I really know that I’m saved if I don’t know that, in the very end, I will persevere-like your Buddhist friend. I would suggest there are tests for us to see if we are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5-8) the most important is scripture and an active prayer life.”
I think you make a valid point. In the parable of the sower, sometimes the seed never takes root. Sometimes the soil is shallow, so the plant cannot last. That sounds like my Buddhist friend...who was only a Buddhist for about a year until he switched to something else. Sometimes the seed is choked by the weeds...sounds like the plant is alive, but not healthy. But maybe not. And then there is the seed that grows and bears fruit.
So time plus a hunger for God’s word and desire to speak with him would all be pretty strong signs, to which I would add the fruit of the Spirit. If God has been in you for many years, you will know. For my part, I suppose it took 20 years or more before I started to realize God wasn’t letting go, and to trust that he would really see me through to the finish.
It is a bit odd - the longer I go, the more I realize I don’t deserve anything, and the more certain I am that God has given me everything I need.
It means that you were wrong.
Mat 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Mat 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 10:7 “And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’
Mat 13:24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field,
Mat 13:31 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field.
Mat 13:33 He told them another parable. “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.”
Mat 13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
I could go on, but you might want to read up on the Kingdom of Heaven. You might start here:
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByTopic/30/709_Is_the_Kingdom_Present_or_Future/
There is more good reading here:
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Kingdom-of-God/Essays/
And you’re still wrong. Thanks.
This I think is an indication of spiritual growth. Throughout my life I have had peaks and valleys like everyone else, but it always is God that keeps pushing me on. And the farther I go, the more I see what a wretched creature that I am and just how much God has more work to do in me. This is not false humility but simply an honest and objective appraisal of my current condition.
Like you, I have had some very dear friends leave the faith. As the Baptist Confession tells us, you really can never be certain about anyone's elses faith except your own. This is simply because you know what your own personal relationship to God is. You cannot possibly know what someone elses relationship is. As the Baptist Confession teaches us, we rest upon God's promises and His Spirit bears witness to our Spirit to humble us to submit to His reign and rule.
I will add an addemdum here. While one may know the status of their relationship before God, that is the ONLY relationship one can know. Thus, people who we may think are great Christians may turn out at some point not to be. This could be a friend, it could be a pastor, it could be the Pope. This is often how heresy gets introduced. We cannot judge others (unless they are committing eggregious sin) but we should be cautious in promoting people. Likewise, people who we may think are very luke warm may be used down the road by God in a mighty way. We cannot judge others; either one way or the other. We can only judge ourselves.
Here is an interesting sermon on the The Parable of the Sower. I like it because the fruit we exhibit are the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Do you have joy? Do you have peace? Are you more loving? Can you truthfully say this is God working in you to help mold you into a better person? These are the promises of God and the evidence of the Spirit working in us, to the praise of His everlasting glory.
“There is no problem that I see”
That’s because it’s you theology and it would be very hard for you to immediately come out and say, “Hey, I see a gaping hole here”.
_________________
“If a person is trusting in the scriptures, the ONLY reason they are trusting in the scriptures is because they are one of God’s elect.”
The Pharisees trusted in the Scripture.
_________________
“On the contrary. You know if you are one of the “elect” simply because you believe in God. “
And how do you KNOW you believe in God? You right back to subjectivity and emotions.
1) Without a doubt, no one can see the defects of their own perspective as well as their critics. Thank you for that valuable insight.
2) You play fast and loose with the word “trust.” Jesus never said the Pharisees “trusted” in the Scriptures. Read it again. He says “for in them [the Scriptures] you think you have eternal life.” A person may think they have salvation all figured out, but because their heart is so far removed from a true love for God, their trust is in their own thinking, not in Him. If the Pharisees had truly trusted Scripture, they would have seen the suffering and humility of the promised Messiah, they would have seen the many prophesies fulfilled in Christ, and they would, with Simeon, be able to say, on seeing Jesus, that they had seen the salvation of Israel.
3) You have not yet answered my challenge, and by now I am beginning to suspect it is because you have no tenable answer. I have asked you before, and I will ask you again. How do you claim to escape the much vaunted dangers of subjectivity? You are, like us, a fallen being, and just as capable of self-deception. In what then do you trust, if not the sovereign power of God to save a selfish, self-deluding, sin-seeking soul, in spite of himself? You trust perhaps in your own ability to hold up your end of the “Open Transaction” of which you are so fond? So you trust in your own certainty that such and such a Scripture applies to you, or your own level-headed assessment of your spiritual condition and what to do about it, or you trust in your own ability to assess the veracity of the authority figures in your life who have told you what to think and what to do to be saved?
You are braver than I am, by a long shot. That transaction was no more open to me than the decision a master makes to feed his dog. The pet doesn’t know where the food comes from, how much it costs, or why it’s good for him. But his appetite inclines him to eat when good food is presented, and so he does. But dead dogs don’t eat. Even if you spoon feed them.
Or let me ask it another way. When Lazarus was raised from the dead, at what point might he have said, “Y’know, I really want to stay dead, so just leave me alone, g’night.” Was that transaction “open?” What if God wants to raise some from spiritual death? If we are all so trapped in the blindness of our own subjectivity, how can anything God does be “open” to us?
The problem is this: Your “open transaction” presupposes a level playing field between the parties to the transaction, the relative equality of partners to a contract. In salvation there is no such equality. God, as Paul says in Romans 9, has mercy on whom he will, and whom he will he hardens. Does that meet your criteria for “openness?” No, its not a very pleasant idea when first encountered. But the truth is that mercy is something that, by definition, you have no right to expect. It is not owed to you. Otherwise it would not be mercy.
Therefore, unless God had said that any who come to him would not be turned away, none of us would have any reasonable expectation of salvation. If you come before a king for mercy, you do not know whether you will receive it before you ask. But if you have asked, and he has agreed, then it is presumption to deny that he will keep his word.
Is not God greater than our subjectivity? What did Jesus do with the demoniac wandering the graveyards? Did he say, “Go get your head clear, then come back and we’ll straighten out this possession thing if you like?” No. He bypassed the will of that tormented soul and in dramatic fashion cast out the evil that held him in bondage all those years. And what of Paul, who was devoted to destroying Christianity? Did Jesus just put his arm around Paul and say, “you know, it would be great if you would come over to my side. I’ll give you a few days to think about it?” No. He stopped him cold from carrying out his evil plans, then told to wait for further instructions, things he must do, not things optional, but things necessary. And Ananias, who would help him regain his sight, was specifically told that Paul, despite his wickedness, had been chosen by God for a ministry to the Gentiles.
So what place does “subjectivity” have in any of this? In term of impeding the will of God, our subjective nature, problematic as it is, is simply not going to stop Him from having mercy on whomsoever he chooses. I count that a blessing, because without His intervention, it is certain that I would to this day be wandering in the wilderness.
If I grew up in a Reformed church I might agree with you. However, for over 30 years I didn't even understand there was a Reformed "belief". I can attest, scripture does not make sense (especially John, Romans, and the Old Testament) if you do not have a Reformed background.
The Pharisees trusted in the Scripture.
No. The Pharisees made their own set of rules and shoehorned scripture around those rules.
And how do you KNOW you believe in God? You right back to subjectivity and emotions.
Belief in God IS NOT subjective and emotional. I am not a person given to emotion. You can simple see the evidence of God all around in the very fabric of life. There is logic and order in the universe and if one takes the time to observe this, they will come to this conclusion. My salvation experience did not rest upon an emotional experience but one of logical experience.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.