Civil Discourse (Ecumenical)

me ^ | January 11, 2010 | Judith Anne

[Religion Moderator]

Opinions aren’t facts.

Among the many reasons the term "lie" addressed to another Freeper is "making it personal": to some lurkers and posters, opinion is fact.

[Religion Moderator]

There is to be no antagonism on “ecumenical” threads.

[SnakeDoctor]

I think there is a distinction between declaring someone Christian or not, and determining their Salvation.

Salvation is an individual endeavor, not a product of which denomination of Christianity you belong to. Just because I regard someone as Christian doesn’t mean they have been granted Salvation (because my judgment of whether they are Christian can only be superficial ... I cannot read the heart or mind) — though, hopefully, my judgment is effective enough not to regard someone who has achieved Salvation as “not Christian”. That wouldn’t be good.

Salvation is, fundamentally, up to the Almighty alone. I cannot say whether any particular Catholic has achieved Salvation just as I cannot say whether any particular Baptist has achieved Salvation. I am sure there are some in each church that have missed the mark for various reasons.

And, fundamentally, I believe Catholics and Protestants alike must depend on Grace to gloss-over our inevitable doctrinal errors. Hopefully we don’t hold any errant beliefs that are dealbreakers in the judgment of the Almighty.

SnakeDoc

[Between the Lines]

First of all, I'd like to hear from all confessions why it is that so many of our open religion threads so quickly descend into the worst bickering. Insults are freely flung about, hiding behind the "impersonal" barrier of attacking churches instead of the people who attend them.

I have found that the first several replies to a thread generally set the tone of the discussion. If these first several replies are God centered and uplifting, the thread will usually continue to be so with only a few exceptions. If the first several replies are negative, disruptive or destructive, the thread can and usually does turn into a free for all.

In the past I have tried to be quick to inject positive godly posts into what could have possibly been caustic threads and met with great results. But as I am only one person and there are so many threads that have negative potential, my one man crusade to clean up the FReligion forum through positive posts was exhausting and short lived.

Unfortunately instead of claiming the thread for God's glory, too many FReepers in this forum wish to claim the argument in the thread for their own church and their own selfish purposes. While God should be found in every thread in the FReligion forum, some days you have to search hard to find Him here at all.

/rant

[wagglebee]

Perhaps if we discussed TRUTH instead of calling others liars, and trust the readers of the thread to figure out any dishonesty on their own?

I absolutely agree. However, when a person posts what they KNOW to be a lie because it has been demonstrated to be a lie, that makes them a liar. Moreover, when a person blatantly makes something up, claims that it is a direct quote and then later acknowledges that it's not a direct quote at all they are a liar.

Unfortunately, there are a great many subtle lies that lurkers will not figure it out unless they are exposed.

[SnakeDoctor]

Baptist Churches (at least the good ones) are very Biblical, generally democratic (small “d”), and generally without the ceremony or formality of Catholic churches (outside of Baptism, Baby/ Child dedications and Communion).

I find that I agree with most decrees of the Vatican — I just disagree that Vatican decrees are any more worthy of attention than decrees of the Southern Baptist Convention. I also don’t buy into the ceremonial stuff, pastoral/priestly celibacy, etc.

I do have a ridiculous question, however — as a lifelong Protestant who remains ignorant of most Catholic ceremony ... I’ve seen Catholic mass (on TV — I’ve only actually attended one in person) where the Priest carrys what looks like a smoking (incense?) vase on a stick down the aisle, and shakes it in various directions. What is he doing?

SnakeDoc

[Judith Anne]

Those open threads, even the ones that start out with the best intentions, sooner or later get into the same old arguments. When someone tries to shout everyone down, or inserts a barb hidden in a velvet glove, those threads become playgrounds for the devil (imho) and a bad reflection on the RF and all who participate.

I thank you for your efforts. You and others have sincerely tried.

I would like to find myself, as a Catholic, on an open thread where people disagreed but did not vilify my beliefs. I am certain protestants feel the same.

[narses]

That is called a censer. For more on the hows and whys, see http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07716a.htm

[Quix]

Will have to ponder a bit more . . . for a useful reply.

. . . beyond the usual . . .

human nature.

Certainly in RELIGION, ideas, institutions, dogma, habits, customs, rituals . . . the whole of the RELIGIOUS experiences and expressions are subject to very very VERY strong emotional responses for and against on the part of all who participate or observe.

This is somewhat natural given that we are dealing with issues of

ETERNAL WEIGHT—ETERNAL LIFE WEIGHT

and all concerned either do or ought to realize that there is no more important issue in life . . . than eternal life.

I think a lot of junk flows from that—whether the flowing from that is fitting, logical, balanced, proportional, or not.

However, my efforts with MarkBsnr were sincere and remain so. I’d love a workable solution that all could (in clear conscience) and WOULD ascribe to.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Nares a lie is in the eye of the beholder.”

Are you sure? If you say that a lie is in the eye of the beholder than how can there be any truth at all?

[Quix]

Would you please illustrate for me how I might reply to post #6 in a nonantagonistic way consistent with my perspective? I’m a bit stumped, oddly.

Maybe I’m not awake enough yet.

[narses]

BTW much of what the Vatican and the various national conferences put out is very similar in both intent and dogmatic weight as that of the SBC. It is only in very limited areas that the actual and we argue infallible teaching authority gets used.

[Quix]

I want to say . . .

DIFFERENT CONVICTIONS

about theological and even organizational reality

do not equal “lies.”

[Religion Moderator]

I don't comment on an issue in an article unless it deals with moderating the Religion Forum. This one does:

First of all, I'd like to hear from all confessions why it is that so many of our open religion threads so quickly descend into the worst bickering. Insults are freely flung about, hiding behind the "impersonal" barrier of attacking churches instead of the people who attend them.

Some of the loudest "open" thread posters come across as hating those who believe something they do not believe.

But on close examination of their posting history, they do not hate the other guy but with all their heart and soul they deplore that which he loves.

The result is the same, the one whose beliefs are hated feels personally hated even though he is not.

There is a Biblical basis for this reaction because it says somewhere that hating the Son is hating the Father, loving the Son is loving the Father.

Nevertheless, the "open" Religion Forum threads are a town square. If a person cannot tell the difference, he will instantly feel hated when he gets in the middle of the debate where the arrows fly in both directions. He should stay away from open RF debate.

[narses]

I agree.

[Judith Anne]

From an EWTN response:

The purpose of incensing and the symbolic value of the smoke is that of purification and sanctification. For example, in the Eastern Rites at the beginning of Mass, the altar and sanctuary area were incensed while Psalm 50, the “Miserere,” was chanted invoking the mercy of God. The smoke symbolizes the prayers of the faithful drifting up to heaven: the Psalmist prays, “Let my prayer come like incense before you; the lifting up of my hands, like the evening sacrifice” (Psalm 141). Incense also creates the ambiance of heaven: The Book of Revelation describes the heavenly worship as follows: “Another angel came in holding a censer of gold. He took his place at the altar of incense and was given large amounts of incense to deposit on the altar of gold in front of the throne, together with the prayers of all God’s holy ones. From the angel’s hand, the smoke of the incense went up before God, and with it the prayers of God’s people.”

http://bfhu.wordpress.com/2009/05/15/why-does-the-catholic-church-use-incense/

Interesting question. I like it, it is part of the atmosphere of holiness in the mass, for me, it lifts up my heart toward my Lord.

[Quix]

I avoid hating any Roman Catholics et al on FR or anywhere else . . . it’s not the least bit of effort to do so.

I care for every last one of them as brothers and sisters in Christ.

[markomalley]

I’ve seen Catholic mass (on TV — I’ve only actually attended one in person) where the Priest carrys what looks like a smoking (incense?) vase on a stick down the aisle, and shakes it in various directions. What is he doing?

This is a ceremonial thing that has been around for thousands of years. If you want to see incense, you should see an Orthodox divine liturgy.

The reference goes back to the OT times (remember the gift of Frankincense?). For the liturgical reference, you can refer to Exodus 30 in the OT and Rev 8 in the NT. Pay particular attention to Rev 8:4: and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.