Catholic Biblical Apologetics:Christ instituted only 1 church..formally..specifically..visible one.

CatholicApologetics.org ^ | 1985-1991 | Dr. Robert Schihl and Paul Flanagan

[Viking83]

That’s correct. I was little too quick on the post button.

[Desdemona]

And, just a reminder that neither was actually martyred or buried inside the walls of Rome. Hence, “outside the walls,” near the place where, in the fantabulous word of our Italian guide in Rome, St. Paul was “martyrized.”

[Bobsvainbabblings]

Thank you boatbums for reading and acknowledging the post. It is more than the people who post these articles which can easily be proven not to have any validity. The frustrating part is they will post something exactly like it in a few days like no one has ever challenged them.

They claim their church is based on the teachings of the Apostles and their successors. To bad they don’t base it on what Jesus taught the Apostles and the rest of His disciples. BVB

[boatbums]

Amen! I think what frustrates most of us is not just the constant reposting of the same dogmatic statements with the necessary rebuttals each time, but the overarching insistence that to ever believe otherwise than what they say is to not be a true Christian. I have never seen a "Protestant" (that's how we're identified) post anything yet that condemns anyone that has true faith in Jesus Christ as savior no matter what "label" they go by.

By "true faith", I mean the saving knowledge that Christ died for my sins and that by grace through faith, we are saved and not by our own works lest anyone should boast.

[Salvation]

Welcome to FR!

[Salvation]

**I have never seen a “Protestant” (that’s how we’re identified) post anything yet that condemns anyone that has true faith in Jesus Christ as savior no matter what “label” they go by. **

My goodness, where have you been? There are always Catholic bashing threads. In fact two were posted today. LOL!

[boatbums]

My goodness, where have you been? There are always Catholic bashing threads. In fact two were posted today.

Why...I missed them. What are the titles? Remember, though, I said "Protestant" posts that "condemns anyone that has true faith in Jesus Christ as savior no matter what “label” they go by."

[Bobsvainbabblings]

The thing that worries me most is how they believe a man can forgive their sins against God for God. I would like to believe God honors their trying.

 

Peter asked Jesus how many times he had to forgive a brother who sins against him. Jesus told him seventy times seven. That pretty much means anytime they ask. Somehow Peter being told to forgive sins committed against him by a brother translates into Peter being able to forgive that brother's sins against God.

 

Jesus went on to explain to him and us why you have to forgive those sins and the concept of binding and loosing in the same conversation. If you do not forgive, loose, a brother's sin when they ask, His Father cannot forgive your sins when you ask because they are bound.

 

Matthew 18:

²¹ Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
²² Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. ²³ Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. ²⁴ And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. ²⁵ But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. ²⁶ The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ ²⁷ Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
²⁸ “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ ²⁹ So his fellow servant fell down at his feet^[d] and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’^{[e] 30} And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. ³¹ So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. ³² Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. ³³ Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ ³⁴ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
³⁵ “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses

It worries me more that they think binding and loosing does not pertain to them, only priests. Nothing could be further from the truth when you read this passage. How many sins will God not be able to forgive because they have not been taught this truth to perpetuate the lie that only the apostles and their successors could forgive sins and bind and loose? BVB

[narses]

LiteKeeper wrote:

The Roman Catholic Church can not demonstrate through Scripture alone that it is the only true church. That is what the Reformation was all about.

LOL, what an odd argument. God left the question unresolved until Martin Luther came along? That flies against many clear teachings of the Gospel. And since Luther how many times has the "reformation" schism in turn schismed? No, that odd argument simply reaffirms the Universal Church is the One, True Church.

Side note, see the Anglican heresy crumble and see where the Orthodox members of same return home like the Prodigal Son. Deo Gratias. Read Scott Hahn or any of the MULTITUDE of anti-Catholic Protestant scholars whose Biblical research led them BACK to Rome. Why? Real Biblical scholarship that is HONEST discovers that Christ founded ONE Church, the Apostolic Church and that His Sacraments are found in that Church. Study carefully and you will join them in coming home.

[NYer]

The thing that worries me most is how they believe a man can forgive their sins against God for God. I would like to believe God honors their trying.

As you noted, Matthew 18 instructs us to forgive each other's sins. Is this not what Tiger Woods was seeking yesterday? However, that does not remove the effects of sin from the soul. Only God can do that and he does so through His minister on earth, the priest.

This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power "glorified God, who had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8; note the plural "men"). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23). Since it is not possible to confess all of our many daily faults, we know that sacramental reconciliation is required only for grave or mortal sins—but it is required, or Christ would not have commanded it.

[NYer]

The Roman Catholic Church can not demonstrate through Scripture alone that it is the only true church. That is what the Reformation was all about.

Were that true, then the "fruits" of the Reformation would have been the establishment of the authentic church since, according to Scripture, Christ wanted us to be one (John 17:22-23). Sadly, Luther opened Pandora's box when he said that anyone could interpret Scripture. That is the reason why we have x number of christian denominations, a number that grows exponentially each year.

There cannot be more than one interpretation of the Bible. The word "truth" is used several times in the New Testament. However, the plural version of the word "truth" never appears in Scripture. Therefore, there can only be one Truth, not many. We are all as a Church to be of one mind and to think the same (Philippians 2:2; Romans 15:5). There is only to be one "faith" (Ephesians 4:3-6), not many. For the Church is Christ's Body and Christ only had one Body, not many. Also, since the Church is Christ's Bride (Ephesians 5:29), Christ cannot be married to more than one wife.

It was St. Peter alone that was the "rock" upon which Christ established His Church (Matthew 16:18). And it was St. Peter alone that was given the task of "feeding" Christ's sheep (John 21:15-17 ). Scripture clearly points out St. Peter as Christ's representative on earth. Christ did not ask the other Eleven to feed and tend His sheep. If you read The Acts Of The Apostles, it is clear that St. Peter leads the Apostles. Therefore, since the Apostles are to be replaced as they die (Acts 1:20-26), then it follows that whoever succeed(s) St. Peter is leader of the Church. There is only to be one shepherd of the Church (John 10:16). For the Apostles did not argue amongst themselves whether there was a "greatest" at all, but who amongst them was the greatest (Mark 9:34; Luke 9:46).

[LiteKeeper]

The "One" church you refer to may also be the universal church, the body of Christ. And do you discard the work of the Apostle Paul who established many churches...out of which grew the "Orthodox" churches, churches that do not acknowledge the headship of your Pope?

Where in Scripture does it tell us that only the "clergy" can interpret Scripture? We are all called to be diligent students of the Word, workmen who need not be ashamed. And yet there are many questionable "teachings" of the Roman Catholic Church that the universal church does not accept, not the least of which is the focus on Mary and the saints.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

The thing that worries me most is how they believe a man can forgive their sins against God for God. I would like to believe God honors their trying.

As you noted, Matthew 18 instructs us to forgive each other's sins. Is this not what Tiger Woods was seeking yesterday? However, that does not remove the effects of sin from the soul. Only God can do that and he does so through His minister on earth, the priest. 

That my have been what Tiger was seeking but you and I are not involved scripturally. He did not sin against you or I so we have nothing to forgive him for his act or acts of adultery.

Tiger's adulatory is only a sin against his wife and God the Father. They are the only two he needs to ask forgiveness from for his acts of adulatory and the only two who can grant that forgiveness if asked with contrition.

If you read the text I referenced earlier about Old Testament earthly priests you would realize God the Father is the only one who could  forgive the corporate sins of the people but only after the priests offered Him sacrifices in the manner He prescribed in great detail.

I also advised reading Hebrews. Especially chapters 7-8-9-10. You will see the Old Testament style earthly priesthood is no longer needed because the New Testament Priest, Jesus, is in heaven after offering God His Father the ultimate sacrifice, Himself.

God and God alone can forgive our sins against Him and does when we ask with contrition through the one time sin offering of His Christ.    

This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power "glorified God, who had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8; note the plural "men"). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23). Since it is not possible to confess all of our many daily faults, we know that sacramental reconciliation is required only for grave or mortal sins—but it is required, or Christ would not have commanded it

What part of forgiving sins and binding and loosing sins described by Christ in my post 48 is not required of you and I for God the Father to forgive our sins against Him?

How come when you and others use John 20:21-23 you never put it context with 19-20?

¹⁹ Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled,^[c] for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” ²⁰ When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.  

It says the disciples were gathered there. It was not limited to eleven people in that room. There were 120 men and women disciples a short time later at Pentecost. Do you suppose a few of them might have been there?

Let me see if I have this right. I can asked God in heaven for His blessings in prayer through Christ but I have to go through a non-scriptural earthly priest to gain forgiveness for my sins against God. 

With that kind of logic I can see how man thinks he can give degrees of severity and penance for a sin only God can forgive. God has already forgiven all our sins when we accept the only penance he has establish for all sins against Him, Christ's finished work. BVB

The thing that worries me most is how they believe a man can forgive their sins against God for God. I would like to believe God honors their trying.

As you noted, Matthew 18 instructs us to forgive each other's sins. Is this not what Tiger Woods was seeking yesterday? However, that does not remove the effects of sin from the soul. Only God can do that and he does so through His minister on earth, the priest. 

That my have been what Tiger was seeking but you and I are not involved scripturally. He did not sin against you or I so we have nothing to forgive him for his act or acts of adultery.

Tiger's adulatory is only a sin against his wife and God the Father. They are the only two he needs to ask forgiveness from for his acts of adulatory and the only two who can grant that forgiveness if asked with contrition.

If you read the text I referenced earlier about Old Testament earthly priests you would realize God the Father is the only one who could  forgive the corporate sins of the people but only after the priests offered Him sacrifices in the manner He prescribed in great detail.

I also advised reading Hebrews. Especially chapters 7-8-9-10. You will see the Old Testament style earthly priesthood is no longer needed because the New Testament Priest, Jesus, is in heaven after offering God His Father the ultimate sacrifice, Himself.

God and God alone can forgive our sins against Him and does when we ask with contrition through the one time sin offering of His Christ.    

This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power "glorified God, who had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8; note the plural "men"). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23). Since it is not possible to confess all of our many daily faults, we know that sacramental reconciliation is required only for grave or mortal sins—but it is required, or Christ would not have commanded it

What part of forgiving sins and binding and loosing sins described by Christ in my post 48 is not required of you and I for God the Father to forgive our sins against Him?

How come when you and others use John 20:21-23 you never put it context with 19-20?

¹⁹ Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled,^[c] for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” ²⁰ When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.  

It says the disciples were gathered there. It was not limited to eleven people in that room. There were 120 men and women disciples a short time later at Pentecost. Do you suppose a few of them might have been there?

Let me see if I have this right. I can asked God in heaven for His blessings in prayer through Christ but I have to go through a non-scriptural earthly priest to gain forgiveness for my sins against God. 

With that kind of logic I can see how man thinks he can give degrees of severity and penance for a sin only God can forgive. God has already forgiven all our sins when we accept the only penance he has establish for all sins against Him, Christ's finished work. BVB

[NYer]

And do you discard the work of the Apostle Paul who established many churches...out of which grew the "Orthodox" churches, churches that do not acknowledge the headship of your Pope?

The "churches" you refer to are actually communities, all part of the same Church. The "Orthodox" churches did no grow out of that Church, they separated from it.

Although it is not widely known in our Western world, the Catholic Church is actually a communion of Churches. According to the Constitution on the Church of the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, the Catholic Church is understood to be "a corporate body of Churches," united with the Pope of Rome, who serves as the guardian of unity (LG, no. 23). At present there are 22 Churches that comprise the Catholic Church. The new Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope John Paul II, uses the phrase "autonomous ritual Churches" to describe these various Churches (canon 112). Each Church has its own hierarchy, spirituality, and theological perspective. Because of the particularities of history, there is only one Western Catholic Church, while there are 21 Eastern Catholic Churches. The Western Church, known officially as the Latin Church, is the largest of the Catholic Churches. It is immediately subject to the Roman Pontiff as Patriarch of the West. The Eastern Catholic Churches are each led by a Patriarch, Major Archbishop, or Metropolitan, who governs their Church together with a synod of bishops. Through the Congregation for Oriental Churches, the Roman Pontiff works to assure the health and well-being of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

While this diversity within the one Catholic Church can appear confusing at first, it in no way compromises the Church's unity. In a certain sense, it is a reflection of the mystery of the Trinity. Just as God is three Persons, yet one God, so the Church is 22 Churches, yet one Church.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes this nicely:

"From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God's gifts and the diversity of those who receive them... Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions. The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity" (CCC no. 814).

Although there are 22 Churches, there are only eight "Rites" that are used among them. A Rite is a "liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony," (Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, canon 28). "Rite" best refers to the liturgical and disciplinary traditions used in celebrating the sacraments. Many Eastern Catholic Churches use the same Rite, although they are distinct autonomous Churches. For example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church and the Melkite Catholic Church are distinct Churches with their own hierarchies. Yet they both use the Byzantine Rite.

To learn more about the "two lungs" of the Catholic Church, visit this link:

CATHOLIC RITES AND CHURCHES

The Vatican II Council declared that "all should realize it is of supreme importance to understand, venerate, preserve, and foster the exceedingly rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern churches, in order faithfully to preserve the fullness of Christian tradition" (Unitatis Redintegrato, 15).

A Roman rite Catholic may attend any Eastern Catholic Liturgy and fulfill his or her obligations at any Eastern Catholic Parish. A Roman rite Catholic may join any Eastern Catholic Parish and receive any sacrament from an Eastern Catholic priest, since all belong to the Catholic Church as a whole. I am a Roman Catholic practicing my faith at a Maronite Catholic Church. Like the Chaldeans, the Maronites retain Aramaic for the Consecration.

[jafojeffsurf]

Great post, Thanks for the ping.

[NYer]

He did not sin against you or I so we have nothing to forgive him for his act or acts of adultery.

Sure he did. Our sins effect the community at large. Tiger Woods, by virtue of his golf skills, has received media attention making him a public figure. As such, his adultery touches the lives of those who benefit from his charitable foundations. Donors who may have been scandalized by his behavior, may choose not to contribute. Those dependent on the donations are then effected. The same is true in our own lives. When you lie, you not only sin but that sin effects others around you.

If you read the text I referenced earlier about Old Testament earthly priests you would realize God the Father is the only one who could forgive the corporate sins of the people but only after the priests offered Him sacrifices in the manner He prescribed in great detail.

That was true in the Old Testament. Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Penance and in so doing, provided a means for us to have our sins forgiven by God.

What part of forgiving sins and binding and loosing sins described by Christ in my post 48 is not required of you and I for God the Father to forgive our sins against Him?

You begin with Matthew 18:21, which is a continuation of what I posted. "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18). Since he would not always be with the Church visibly, Christ gave this power to other men so the Church, which is the continuation of his presence throughout time (Matt. 28:20), would be able to offer forgiveness to future generations. He gave his power to the apostles, and it was a power that could be passed on to their successors and agents, since the apostles wouldn’t always be on earth either, but people would still be sinning.

God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.

It says the disciples were gathered there. It was not limited to eleven people in that room. There were 120 men and women disciples a short time later at Pentecost. Do you suppose a few of them might have been there?

120, 12, 200 ... what difference does that make? The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles and the 120 in the Upper Room gave them the confidence and vision to go forth and preach all they had learned from Jesus. Their first task, under the presidency of Peter, was to agree on the minimum organization necessary to undertake their world mission, and the Acts of the Apostles reveals to us that from the very beginning the Church of God enjoyed the good order that came from a right understanding of the mind of Jesus.

The twelve apostles were the supreme authority in virtue of being the eyewitnesses specially selected by Jesus to control the development of the Church. Their Church was a living organism entirely independent of the theocratic state of Judaism and responsible to no one but God himself. While reverencing the Temple of God on account of its past associations, they were obliged to set up their own house churches (for example, the church in the house of John Mark's mother), where they were able to celebrate the Eucharistic rite of "the breaking of the bread" bequeathed to them by Jesus.

This, as well as their insistence on exact adherence to their teaching about him, led to the immediate emergence of a fellowship (based on baptism into Christ) that distinguished them from all other citizens of Jerusalem. Jesus himself, together with his Father and his Holy Spirit--the one Trinitarian God--was now the object of worship in the apostolic community of the Church of Jerusalem. But this "foreign body" of followers of Jesus had to justify its existence in the face of the fierce hostility of the unconverted high priests, Sadducees, Pharisees, Levites, and priests.

I can asked God in heaven for His blessings in prayer through Christ but I have to go through a non-scriptural earthly priest to gain forgiveness for my sins against God.

The priesthood is scriptural but that is a different discussion. For now, you are correct in one respect. We can and ought to go directly to God through Jesus Christ in repentance, prayer, and offering our spiritual sacrifices in union with him. But this is not an either/or proposition. We do not go either to God or to his representatives on this earth when we have needs. The Catholic Church and the Bible say we do both. For example, Romans 12:1–2 says, "I appeal to you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship." Here we see Paul encouraging all Christians to exercise their universal, "royal priesthood" before God and offer spiritual sacrifices directly to him. We Catholics agree that all Christians can and should do just that. But, analogous to what we see in the Old Testament, we also see a special group of men called by Christ to a ministerial priesthood in the New Testament. In fact, apostles (cf. Eph. 4:11), elders (Jas. 5:14), bishops (1 Tim. 3:1) function as priests in the New Testament.

Once again, we see our Lord definitively choosing and sending apostles to act as mediators between God and men (John 20:21–23). Jesus gave the power to forgive and retain sins to the apostles. This is a priestly ministry (cf. Lev. 19:21–22). In 2 Corinthians 2:10, Paul says, "If I have pardoned anything for your sakes I have done it in the person of Christ". Jesus not only gave the authority to forgive sins to the apostles, but he gave them divine, infallible authority to proclaim the gospel as well. "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16). This too is a priestly function. The apostles act in the place of God as mediators between God and men. In 2 Corinthians 2:17, Paul describes this priestly work as such: "For we are not as many, adulterating the word of God; but with sincerity, as from God, before God, in Christ we speak".

With that kind of logic I can see how man thinks he can give degrees of severity and penance for a sin only God can forgive. God has already forgiven all our sins when we accept the only penance he has establish for all sins against Him, Christ's finished work.

By that logic, I can go out tomorrow and kill anyone I choose, because God has already forgiven me.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

I have to be away until late this evening. I will answer then. Thanks BVB

[NYer]

Thank you, Bob. I look forward to your response. Please note that I will probably not be surfing the web later tonight. Tomorrow morning, I will be at Church for religious education, followed by Divine Liturgy. More than likely, the earliest opportunity I will have to see your response, will not be until Sunday afternoon.

[LiteKeeper]

The "churches" you refer to are actually communities, all part of the same Church. The "Orthodox" churches did no grow out of that Church, they separated from it.

Actually, over the "filoque" controversy, the Roman patriarch excommunicated the other four patriarchs...one of the coequal patriarchs dictated to the other four coequal patriarchs. They didn't quit, they were driven off. The Roman patriarch pulled a power play. Interestingly, the other four patriarchs and their "communities" continue on to today, remarkably unchanged. And the Orthodox brothers are much more open to understanding the universal church vs the Roman Catholic Church's claim to being The True Church!

[LiteKeeper]

NOTE: Protestant churches do not recognize the headship of the Pope, but instead, point to Christ as the Head of the Church.