Posted on 03/03/2010 10:14:34 AM PST by NYer
It’s been nice visiting with you and others regarding our faith.
God’s best to you as you continue to love and serve our Lord Jesus Christ!
No, I talked to their Maker, and read their teachings.
It’s been nice visiting with you and others regarding our faith.
God’s best to you as you continue to love and serve our Lord Jesus Christ!
Isn't it hard being on fire with the Holy Spirit and coming back to earth like a ton of bricks? Ouch!
I've always loved God, but with life, my heart grew hard. Having children changed everything, I will do for them, what I would not do for myself. I have a good Catholic mother, she gave me that gift. My Catholic husband taught me to forgive and forget though his example. My wayward father taught me to only trust in God. He was brought up Methodist, and his family was a mess. That is why I will never change my faith. My personal relationships clearly showed me by their "fruit", what had enduring value, or not.
We all have different faith walks. We Catholics are spoiled brats. He is too good to us. Have Mercy on us Jesus.
Thank you for your loving words. Glory to God.
In recent history the Pope, and the magesterium, were needed to clarify the following contemporary issues:
Abortion is considered to be a form of murder, an act worthy of excommunication.
Homosexual acts are sinful.
Women are to be afforded the highest regard as mothers and wives.
Marriage is considered a sacrament and permanent; divorce and remarriage are not acceptable unless the first marriage is annulled.
Remarriage without an annulment results in inability to receive sacraments.
Euthanasia is sinful.(Terri Schiavo)
Medical research which destroys fertilized embryos is wrong.
The death penalty is rarely justified.
The pope is the head of the Roman Catholic Church. He and the magisterium (the teaching authority of the Church) clarify doctrine.
Mary, the mother of Jesus, is highly revered, though not worshipped.
Saints are asked to intercede on behalf of sinners. We ask them to pray for us.
Social justice teachings urge Catholics to show a special preference for those who are poor and weak.
What is wrong with any of that?
Do you see what is going on with the many wayward churches, each doing whatever they feel, including allowing homosexual priests?
Did you know that Terri Shiavo was Catholic?
The entire Schiavo case is a testimony as to why the magesterium is needed Men can rationalize anything, including murder, that is why the Church, and God loving Christians are needed.
The enemy attacks us constantly, yet the Catholic church remains the largest segment of Christians in the world, and growing.
I’m sorry you think more highly of your pet doctrines about Christ’s Church than you do of Jesus Christ. Exalt Christ, would you? He alone is the Savior, not your particular church structure.
You demean Christ when you demean those who follow Him, who happen not to belong to your particular denomination.
Christ is sufficient. And you take away from His glory when you say that in order to be saved you need to repent and follow Him AND do something else ...
Amen, I don't understand these "Johnny Come Lately's", who think that we should trust what they say, as opposed to honoring the treasures that Jesus gave us.
Why don't they go after Jews, or other non-Christians, it is especially bizarre to practicing Catholics, because we have no problem with any other Christian religions. I really believed that only cults, like Jehovah Witness and the KKK, had a problem with Catholics. Suddenly they seem to be everywhere. Even among brothers who claim to be Christian. Doesn't make sense.
I trust Jesus, and the authority He gave Peter.
In recent history the Pope, and the magesterium, were needed to clarify the following contemporary issues:
1. Abortion is considered to be a form of murder, an act worthy of excommunication.
So how many people has the church excommunicated for having, or supporting, and abortion. Can you name one prominent American political figure who has been excommunicated because of their pro-abortion stance? And if they are “automatically” excomminicated, then name one who has been denied the sacraments of the church.
Deuteronomy 19:10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.
Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
2. Homosexual acts are sinful.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
3. Women are to be afforded the highest regard as mothers and wives.
And because they are created in the image of God, even if they are not a wife or a mother.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
4. Marriage is considered a sacrament and permanent; divorce and remarriage are not acceptable unless the first marriage is annulled.
Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
5. Remarriage without an annulment results in inability to receive sacraments.
John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Do you suppose Jesus would offer this woman a drink of the living water only He can give, and then refuse her the sacraments for being married 5 times without anullments?
6. Euthanasia is sinful.(Terri Schiavo)
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Did the church excomminicate anyone for the heinous act of Terri Schaivo’s murder?
7. Medical research which destroys fertilized embryos is wrong.
Again, innocent blood.
8. The death penalty is rarely justified.
Not according to God.
Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
The scriptures were quoted to illustrate that God has already clearly spoken about these issues in very simple, direct words, and there is no need of the magisterium to clarify God’s will and intent for those who are willing to abide by His word.
The questions about the action(s) of the church regarding excommunication are intended to ascertain if the church is actually serious about holiness in deed, or merely content with words.
The differences with the magisterium’s decisions are based on God’s word, i.e., Genesis 9:6 which is the God given foundation for human justice. Murder is to be met with the death penalty — Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
There is nothing wrong with the “magisterium” or any other body or individual restating (not changing) God’s word. However, when they claim divine authority (as they do), and contradict, ignore, or “water-down” God’s word then they are in danger of bringing severe judgment upon themselves as well as leading the church into error. We will all face judgment, but I think is is very foolish to claim “God said it” regarding anything that differs with (or goes beyond) what God has already said.
Continued:
9. The pope is the head of the Roman Catholic Church. He and the magisterium (the teaching authority of the Church) clarify doctrine.
Addressed in the previous post. Again, I think it unwise to claim to be “the voice of God” for anyone, or to abdicate your own responsibility to understand and apply the word of God for yourself, even if it contradicts others in positions of prominence or authority, even as Paul rebuked Peter for his hypocrisy in submitting to James’ unscriptural requirements about “Jewishness” for Christian believers.
Galatians 2:11 ¶But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
10. Mary, the mother of Jesus, is highly revered, though not worshipped.
Every person created in God’s image is to be honored and respected. Perhaps we should revere God alone.
11. Saints are asked to intercede on behalf of sinners. We ask them to pray for us.
Extra-biblical, I suppose it is good to get all the help you can, if you think Jesus’ intercessions are not enough, or that He is too busy for you or not able to understand you.
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
12. Social justice teachings urge Catholics to show a special preference for those who are poor and weak.
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
NO problems with this, except in those places where this has led the Catholic Church into a political alliance with communism.
Also,
Could you tell me why the Catholic Church tolerates pro-choice, pro-death, pro-killing people to remain Catholics in good standing and even teach at their universities...if the magisterium’s pronouncements have any “force” in Catholicism.
1st article in link:
http://www.tfpstudentaction.org/
The church does not pretend to know people's hearts, and practices Cannon Law. The church can apply Cannon law to those within the jurisdiction of the church (priests), it isn't a one-step process.
The Catechism makes clear God's laws but does not dictate God's mercy.
Therefore, it is impossible for the church to take immediate actions against those who offend God. That is up to God.
ccc2272 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society." "Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. ‘A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,’ [CIC, can. 1398] ‘by the very commission of the offense,’ [CIC, can. 1314] and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. [Cf. CIC, cann. 1323-1324] The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society." "Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. ‘A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,’ [CIC, can. 1398] ‘by the very commission of the offense,’ [CIC, can. 1314] and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law [Cf. CIC, cann. 1323-1324]. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society."
So, then, in the Catholic Church, excommunication means nothing as far as being a visible, participating Catholic.
Excommunication, to this believer, based on the Bible, means an instant expulsion from the fellowship of other believers, with a view toward promoting repentance so that the offending “sinner” will repent and return to communion with the saints...and with God.
1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Is seems the Catholic position is almost exactly opposite the biblical posotion.
Thank you for the clarifying information, I now understand better why the Catholic Church doesn’t “put its money where its mouth is” regarding church discipline.
The church does not pretend to know people’s hearts, and practices Cannon Law. Neither do I.
Church discipline is not based on people’s hearts, but on their actions.
I'm sure you feel more qualified than the 2,000 "Roman Catholic Church" to tell me what scripture means in my life, but I'm also sure you can find enough charity in your heart to understand that some of us would prefer to rely on the wisdom of the Magesterium. I'm sorry if you find that so evil or offensive.
I'm certainly not qualified to tell you that your church is wrong. My intention is only to explain that some people trust the theological scholars of the Catholic Church, and may not be willing to accept everything an anonymous poster claims from his own church, or personal heart. How would you respond if a stranger made claims about you that were complete falsehoods?
I have no doubt you are being honest about your convictions. I questions the source of your convictions. What church do you belong to? I promise I will not make accusations that aren't historically factual.
I hope you are more perfect than I am, but to my God humility is important. To my God love for Him is the most important, only second to loving others as ourselves. I can't pretend to codemn the wicked. I can only stay away from those who do evil things, and give testimony of God's love.
The church has enough work to be done with its' billions of parishoners, and with serving the needy. Spending countless hours on looking for twigs in our neighbors eyes, would be a disservice to His will.
Should we avoid evil? I say yes. Can I condemn others? Certainly not me.
I am a Christian, and go to a Christian church.
I nowhere encouraged you or the Catholic Church to condemn anyone. I simply encouraged you and the Catholic Church to follow the clear teachings of Scripture in exercising church discipline.
To illustrate: The police don’t arrest anyone for entering a bank and thinking how much they could make if they were to rob the bank, and beginning to make a plan. If the same person ever returns, sticks a gun in the face of a teller and says “Hand over your money.”, then the police are going to act to apprehend the bank robber so they can be tried, possibly convicted, and even executed (if someone is killed in the commission of the crime). BTW, that doesn’t mean the bank robber can’t go to heaven, if they repent.
You have to determine what Scripture means in your life, and how to apply it which is why I included 1 Corinthians 5 in my post on church discipline. It speaks directly to application based on the BEHAVIOR of the offender.
As I stated before, only God can take someone to heaven, or let them slip into hell (despite the Catholic Church’s past practice of selling indulgences, which helped spark the Protestant Reformation), but He has given judgment to men in their temporal relationships to one another, including within the church.
1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
Last I heard, the Catholic Church has no problem going into courts of law. Indeed, I think there are 5 (or so) Catholics on the United States Supreme Court. However, the apostle Paul says we are NOT to go to court with a brother before unbelievers, but we ARE to judge one another in the church.
You are free to choose what you believe about/from the Scriptures, and what source(s) you choose to get your information and recognize as authorities on what they say.
I would encourage you to be the best follower of Jesus you can be, within or without the Catholic Church, and if your loyalty to one ever brings you into conflict with your loyalty to the other — then you will have a choice to make.
So don’t try and cop a “don’t condemn” plea. Neither you, nor the Catholic Church has the power to condemn:
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
BTW, the Bible is not anonymous, even if I “am” and you “are,” and you are obviously intelligent enough to decide what it means for yourself.
By questioning my convictions, you are questioning the Bible, which is the source of my convictions, and which I quoted to illustrate. And lest you misinterpret, I encourage you to question the Bible, which I do, because it has its own answers and a God big enough (and small enough) to explain them. Your interpretations will not always be right — but they will be yours, as will the relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit you develop through knowing His word.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Indeed:)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.