Satan's Abomination of Desolation and Christ's Salvation of Desolation

Beautifully put!

It is also quite possible that Satan is bound to earth (depending on how Scripture is interpreted). And given that interpretation, I have seen considerable circumstantial evidence.

As an aside, my favorite aunt, now deceased, was a clinical psychologist at a state mental hospital her an entire career and, though she was, well, clinical by nature, she spoke to me several times of what she called a dark, oppressive aspect of certain of the patients under her care...something beyond mere human illness. I often find myself wondering what she would think of Obama.

Why did Jesus teach “Our Father...”, essentially abbreviating the Hebrew Amidah? Why not a more exclusively “Christian” prayer. Could it have been from a universality of outlook?

I strongly suspect that this is God himself. Otherwise it undermines monothesim. And God has to have a being made "in His image" that can make choices. Otherwise there would seem no point to have made that being.

The response above came from my post ...the serpent had to have gotten that knowledge of good and evil he whispered into Eve's ear before he involved her in his seduction.

IF we did not have the WORD from Isaiah 14:12--- and Ezekiel 28:12---- describing in detail about Satan's creation, appointed office and rebellion, followed with him being the only named entity that has already been judged to earned the death sentence, which Moses notes in Genesis 1:2 then I would consider the notion. And the rebellion was that Satan in his role as anointed cherub that covereth stopped loving the Creator and decided he would be God, and drew a third of the Sons of God with him in his rebellion... Revelation 12:4.

Solomon tells us in Ecclesiastes that we in flesh cannot/do not remember the former things. And that the things that hath been it is that which shall be.... Chapter 1: 9-11

The Heavenly Father could never undermine Himself, but He did/does expect and require His creation to treat Him with the love, reverence and respect He is. And this human in flesh 'age' (most often times translated world) is opportunity without full recall of what took place when Satan rebelled for those with 'free will' to choose. Paul says some did not follow the first rebel and they were predestined to do particular tasks.... Moses, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, twelve sons, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc....

Obviously Satan as was called Lucifer made a choice and yet before his death sentence is carried out is allowed to replay that role as God to allow the children of the Creator to pick which God they will put their soul/spirit trust/faith

As I type this I am reminded of Alinsky's dedication to that first rebel who earned his own kingdom.... for a short time.

The creation of the universe is itself a cataclysmic action, as are the violence in the initiation and tearing apart of stars, 2 or 3 of which had to evolve before the Sun hence its metal content. Yet such upheaval does not demonstrate Satan but rather the way in which God develops the universe. Our “expereince” in the universe, such as it is, extends actually some distance as we can see deeply back into the reaches of distance and hence time to some very early instances of creation. God is perhaps most plain in that “nothing comes from nothing”. Yet quantum uncertainty keeps us from knowing its earliest onset. M-Theory suggests that the “multiverse” is like a loaf of bread: cut into slices, each one separated eternally out of contact with the other. The weakness of gravity however, compared to the three other known physical forces operating in our universe, suggests that some sort of transfer mechanism possibly acts between them, which yields the hope that some semblance of that ever deeper aspect of our existence may yet be learned. God is in these details. Though I can’t prove it, I’d yet lay a considerably higher probability for as against it. Though still throughout, no Satan. Or at least no evidence for one. It’s possible that some other intelligence in another galaxy perceives of some sort of devil giving rise to the structural problems of its existence as well. But its challenge to demonstrate it outside of its own experience would nonetheless remain the same.

Except that the Heavenly Father has Isaiah pen His purpose/plan specifically referring back to Genesis 1:2. Isaiah 45:17 over all plan.... "But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Some peoples may not like it or accept it but this can only be referencing that tree of life Christ, Emmanuel, God with us, that Moses said was in the Garden of God along with the symbolic tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Isaiah 45:18 Why the act of creation is NOT result of cataclysmic action.... For thus saith the LORD That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it NOT in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

There would be NO need to declare and state obvious facts by the Heavenly Father if there was no impostor/deceiver on the horizon.

He was referring to Jews and Gentiles who would put their trust in Him (Jesus - Rom 10:4.)

How does one become a child?.. (John 1:12, Romans 8:14,Gal 4:5) The Scripture has the answer.

Scripture doesn't tell us (to my knowledge) that the AC will be a master politician of the EU.

My friend, It does teach it. It is in the verses I sent you previously.

Out of the 4th beast (Rome)will come the little horn..etc...

My son who is in 6th grade was learning about the major ancient world empires Babylon, Media Persia, Greece, ..Rome..... when we look at the scripture in context it is clear as a bell. May the Lord help you see it my friend. God Bless! I.F.

That Earth formed from gravitational accretion, as did all bodies of appreciable mass in the Solar System as part of the Sun's formation would in no way deny God's role in having made it. Even that the proto-Earth was likely torn apart in collision with a Mars-sized body which gave rise to the Earth/Moon system, I would yet view it - all - as having been accomplished by God. Through the laws of physics, yes, but always cognizant that God gave rise to the dynamics therein as well just as with the structure of the rest of the universe and whatever else may be outside spacetime.

God transcends nature or is not God.

I'm personally agnostic as the divinity of Jesus, yet know too that the United States could never have been founded without Christianity. Thus I am forever thankful to the Father for its witness. I would also hope - and pray - as fervently that we are not witnessing its political end.

That Earth formed from gravitational accretion, as did all bodies of appreciable mass in the Solar System as part of the Sun's formation would in no way deny God's role in having made it. Even that the proto-Earth was likely torn apart in collision with a Mars-sized body which gave rise to the Earth/Moon system, I would yet view it - all - as having been accomplished by God. Through the laws of physics, yes, but always cognizant that God gave rise to the dynamics therein as well just as with the structure of the rest of the universe and whatever else may be outside spacetime.

I readily and freely admit the methodology used to create the heaven and this earth in the beginning is beyond my capability to comprehend. However, this earth is not in the same state as was described in Genesis 1:1, but is to be at some future point returned to that former state. This earth went through a particular specific and for a lack of a better word a supernatural war. I do not believe given the vegetation found in the frozen tundra of the north this earth has always tilted as it does now.

I think there is cause for the questions asked of Job as to where he was when all this creation/formation of the universe and some of it creatures took place. Especially given that years later Solomon says there is no remembrance of the former things...

In Job's days, Satan was allowed to go to and fro even upon this earth, but as it is Written after the temptation of Christ, offering Christ Satan's old seat, Christ ordered Satan to get behind Me... And since Christ is obviously not yet returned that would mean Satan is not allowed to make his former rounds.

Interesting that God says that all souls belong to him, and those that refuse to be in His family are literally given that freedom to make their choice. We in these flesh bodies are so very held by the gravity of the weight of them to this physical earth that it is not common to us to think in terms in the dimension that is always with us and around us but invisible to our naked flesh eyes.

God transcends nature or is not God.

I do not know what this literally means. God to me is the Heavenly Creator that created every soul/spirit as His own child. As well as the physical natural world around us. The Heavenly Father is 'peace' of mind and never authors confusion. Allows it at times yes, but never is the originator.

I'm personally agnostic as the divinity of Jesus, yet know too that the United States could never have been founded without Christianity. Thus I am forever thankful to the Father for its witness. I would also hope - and pray - as fervently that we are not witnessing its political end.

I believe with all my heart that every person has the God given right to make up their own mind as to who Jesus is/was and will always be. Fortunately for me and you there is but one judge, that knows the heart and thoughts of every soul/spirit created that will make the ultimate judgment.

Meanwhile back here on this piece of real estate, Moses pens in Deuteronomy the IF's required to be a blessed nation and one that receives curses. Deuteronomy 32, The Song of Moses says there are two paths and two 'rocks'. The majority in this nation voted to have the lesser rock rule over US... We shall see come November IF any lessons have been learned from electing the destroying class to rule over US.

My friend, I pray the Lord will open your mind to the prospect that you may be incorrect! It is a stretch and a closed-minded one to assume that the EU is the host of the AC.

To most eschatologists the "fourth beast" reference in Daniel is to Roman Emperor Titus who conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the City and the Temple in 70 AD.

To the extent that it refers to Rome or Romes descendants in our day, it may just as easily refer to the United States (which is a descendant of Rome via Europe).

But my point is this, you are spreading an "opinion" as "fact" and, if you are wrong, you are causing believers to focus their attention away from other possible avenues of entrance for the AC and causing your brothers to fail to accurately stand watch for unfolding events.

I do not believe this is your intention.

In light of the fact that you are spreading your "opinion" as "fact," I ask to you at least identify it as such (your opinion) and to encourage your readers to study Prophecy and pray for the Lord's guidance in understanding it.

There are many who are now suspicious that the AC will come from the Islamic world (and, lately, such an Islamic figure might easily emerge from Europe or even the United States). As another poster upthread has said, the entirety of Scripture and Prophecy is about Israel and the Middle East and can only be understood in that context.

I am not saying you are incorrect. What I am saying is that you are spreading your own "opinion" as "fact." IMHO you either need to present solid evidence as to why your "opinion" is indeed "fact," or you need to label it as "opinion" so that you are not spreading confusion and obfuscation regarding a very important aspect of Prophecy.

(spoken in a light hearted manner) My friend, well I disagree to your claims (no offence) and I believe that you are missing the abundant evidence that is the revived Roman empire of Dan 2, 7 The 10 toes mixed with Iron (Rome) and clay.. the little horn.., etc… Dan 9:26, Rev 13 etc...

Sorry to be so dogmatic on this but I have studied this countless hours and times objectively and in context and in the historic nature of this - not that that means anything - I am but a simple man and truly believe with all my heart that this is what it is. Many great individuals of the faith agree also on my position on this.

For misleading individuals… If any thing… I have challenged them to pick up their Bible and study and apply themselves to what the Scriptures teach. It is by being challenge that we dig deeper into the Scriptures to see if it is so as the Bereans of old… that is what I have always done and God has blessed me by it.

The bottom line is that what is key for any is to have a personal saving relationship to Jesus Christ as the Scriptures clearly teach. That is all important.

Thanks for your reply.

I.F.

Sorry to be so dogmatic on this but I have studied this countless hours and times objectively and in context and in the historic nature of this - not that that means anything - I am but a simple man and truly believe with all my heart that this is what it is. Many great individuals of the faith agree also on my position on this.

Thank you for your post.

BTW, I am dogmatic on this subject not because it is about you or me, but because it is God's work...and he is trying to open our eyes and minds to His Truth.

That said, there are many of us who study this matter feverishly (because of its importance). And there are many learned people who, more and more, are reaching a different conclusion than the one your are espousing.

Thank you for finally admitting to your readers that this is YOUR OPINION and encouraging them to study and pray on this subject.

Let me repeat, I am not saying you are incorrect on your conclusion. I am taking issue with your dogmatic pronouncement that your conclusion is THE CORRECT ONE. It may be or it may not. The point is that students of Prophecy must not set conclusions in concrete when such conclusions are only opinions and may be wrong. Students of Eschatology (and that includes you and me) must be forever vigilant and open-minded in their analysis. It does not matter how much investment of time you have made...all that matters is the Truth.

The advice I give all you seek the truth about the End Times is to...

pore endlessly over the Scriptures and the Prophecies,
read and reread the works of other eschatologists and scholars (their works change over time because Prophecy is ALWAYS viewed through the prism of current events as well as history--and the times are changing) and, most importantly,
pray and pray fervently so that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to His Prophecy. This is of course the most important part of understanding Prophecy because without His guidance, your work is merely an empty academic study.

There is one final bit of advice I would give to all (including myself) and that is to be very careful about speaking too authoritatively on Scripture.

We humans are constantly wrong (myself most of all) and when we don't speak humbly we run the risk of misleading other believers who attribute more importance to us (you and me) than we deserve.