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To: Godzilla
We know that the Book of Mormon was first published in 1830. We know that the type was set from a manuscript of the Book of Mormon. That printer's manuscript was based on the original dictated manuscript.

The dictated manuscript was by scribes who wrote on paper the words that Joseph Smith spoke. The words that Joseph Smith spoke were not read from any book or manuscript in the English language. Through "the gift and power of God" Joseph Smith was able to read in English what was engraved in reformed Egyptian on golden plates that an angel led him to find.

Prior to publication of the Book of Mormon, Joseph was inspired to select two sets of witnesses. The first set would behold the book by the power of God: "The book shall be hid from the eyes of the world that the eyes of none shall behold it, save it be that three witnesses shall behold it by the power of God, beside him to whom the book shall be delivered, and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein."

The second set would not behold the book by the power of God, but would behold it with their natural senses: "And there is none other which shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God, to bear testimony of His word unto the children of men."

And so, the testimony of the three witnesses by the power of God and the testimony of eight witnesses who saw the golden plates and the engravings thereon, hefted them, and handled the leaves with their hands, have been printed in all of the millions of printed copies of translations of the Book of Mormon worldwide.

I wrote "translations" because the Mormon church especially, and the Community of Christ church to a lesser degree, have translated the Book of Mormon into many languages, thus fulfilling the beginning words of both testimonies of witnesses: "Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tougues, and people, unto whom this work shall come...".

None of the eleven of the witnesses, though many of them were at times estranged from the church or its leaders, ever denied their printed testimonies.

The Book of Mormon has been an inspiration for good for many people around the world. Its account of the ministry of Jesus Christ in Mesoamerica, in fulfillment of His New Testament promise, "Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice," teaches the universality of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world.

A portion of the Book of Mormon plates were sealed and therefore not translated. This was why the eight witnesses used this language: "and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated, we did handle with our hands." Here is the book's promise concerning the sealed portion of the plates: "The revelation which was sealed shall be kept in the book until the own due time of the Lord, that they may come forth; for behold, they reveal all things from the foundation of the world unto the end thereof."

Here is the online Restored Covenant Edition of the Book of Mormon:
http://www.restoredcovenant.org/RCE.asp?CAT=RCE

1,003 posted on 07/13/2010 6:01:33 PM PDT by John McDonnell
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To: John McDonnell; Colofornian; ejonesie22; aMorePerfectUnion
The dictated manuscript was by scribes who wrote on paper the words that Joseph Smith spoke. The words that Joseph Smith spoke were not read from any book or manuscript in the English language.

Testimony of the scribes tell us that smith didn't use the plates at all. He stuffed his head into his hat with his seer stone.

The first set would behold the book by the power of God: "The book shall be hid from the eyes of the world that the eyes of none shall behold it, save it be that three witnesses shall behold it by the power of God, beside him to whom the book shall be delivered, and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein."

Yet none of the three ever testified to viewing the plates with their PHYSICAL eyes John, but would only attest to seeing them with 'spiritual' eyes. How trustworthy were these three?

Martin Harris

... if the Saints wish to know what the Lord hath said of him, they may turn to the 178th page of the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and the person there called a 'wicked man' is no other than Martin Harris ... (Millennial Star, vol. 8, November 15, 1846, p. 124.)

Phineas H. Young, writing to Brigham Young from Kirtland, Ohio records, "Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was of the Book of Mormon." (Gunnell 1955, 52) W.C. Gunnell in his dissertation on Martin Harris also notes regarding M. Harris' eventual rejoining of the church that "Martin's motives in being baptized at that time are not known, but the data of later events would indicate a lack of sincerity." (Gunnell 1955, 52)

Oliver Cowdery

Excommunicated from the mormon church. [Cowdery] transgressed the law of God; he committed adultery; the Spirit of God withdrew from him, and he, the second elder in the Church, was excommunicated from the Church. (Juvenile Instructor, 1885, p. 360)

Joseph Smith himself said, "Such characters as McLellin, John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris, are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them" (Smith 1902, 3:232).

David Whitmer

Joseph Smith himself said, "Such characters as McLellin, John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris, are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them" (Smith 1902, 3:232).

These are just excerpts - the credibility of the three as far as a witness to the bom is worthless, as their history has shown.

None of the eleven of the witnesses, though many of them were at times estranged from the church or its leaders, ever denied their printed testimonies.

Try excommunicated John, not estranged. AFA the other eight - it is notable that these eight men fall naturally into two groups of four. The first group is comprised of four brothers of David Whitmer, who himself was one of the three witnesses: Christian, Jacob, Peter jun., and John Whitmer. The second four are Joseph Smith's father, Joseph's two brothers (Hyrum and Samuel) and Hiram Page, who was married to the Whitmer's sister, Catherine. Another sister, Elizabeth, married Oliver Cowdery. So, all the witnesses, except Martin Harris, were closely related to one another.

Even if the majority of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon did not deny their testimony of the book itself, this does little to support Mormonism today. Current Mormon doctrine on the nature of God, the priesthood, use of temples, baptism for the dead, and men becoming gods, is nowhere contained in the Book of Mormon. By 1847 not a single one of the surviving eleven witnesses was part of the Mormon church. If these men were alive today, they would be considered apostates who had turned their back on the Spirit of God. They would be cut off from the LDS church and condemned to outer darkness, regardless of whether or not they still believed in the bom.

"and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated, we did handle with our hands."

Only three of the eight witnesses made separate statements that they had handled the plates. They were Joseph's two brothers, Hyrum and Samuel, and John Whitmer. Hyrum and Samuel's statements are further qualified by their brother William who, in an interview, also claimed to have handled the plates. He said:
"I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock and judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds. ... Father and my brother Samuel saw them as I did while in the frock. So did Hyrum and others of the family."

Hiram Page's testimony regarding his part as one of the eight witnesses, he never mentions seeing or handling the plates, but instead emphasizes that Joseph had to have supernatural power to write such a book. He also says:
"And to say that those holy Angels who came and showed themselves to me as I was walking through the field, to confirm me in the work of the Lord of the last days — three of whom came to me afterwards and sang a hymn in their own pure language; yes, it would be treating the God of heaven with contempt, to deny these testimonies." (Ensign of Liberty, 1848, cited in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol 7:4, Winter 1972, p. 84.)

Sorry John, they didn't do as claimed - handle the leaves. Your witnesses are not credible, your prophet is not credible, your bom is not credible.

1,004 posted on 07/13/2010 6:59:25 PM PDT by Godzilla ( 3-7-77)
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To: John McDonnell

“Prior to publication of the Book of Mormon, Joseph was inspired to select two sets of witnesses.”

“The second set would not behold the book by the power of God, but would behold it with their natural senses”

..... You left out the part where he chose witnesses of low character (and likely paid them).

“None of the eleven of the witnesses, though many of them were at times estranged from the church or its leaders, ever denied their printed testimonies.”

..... Oh, it’s way worse than the gloss you put on it!

These were exceptionally discredited people. Please read
the following from the Probe Ministries website. Each witness
is examined using mormon sources and contrasted with Christ’s
followers. It is a stunning difference:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Character of the 11 Witnesses

Joseph Smith claims that after he translated the plates,
he returned them to the angel Moroni. Therefore, there
is no way to verify the veracity of the plates or Smith’s
translation. Smith’s only defense of his account is the
eleven men who signed statements claiming to have seen
the golden plates. Therefore, the credibility of Smith’s
account rests on the testimony of these eleven witnesses.

There are three key witnesses who claim to have seen the
angel show the golden plates to them. The remaining eight
allege to have seen the plates but not the angel.

The LDS church asserts these men never denied their
testimony. However, when we examine the lives of the
witnesses, we find they were untrustworthy, wavering,
and gullible witnesses.

Six of the eleven witnesses, including the three key
witnesses were eventually excommunicated from the church.

=> Former Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson summed up the
=> legacy of the eleven witnesses this way. “Six of the
=> original Twelve Apostles selected by Joseph Smith were
=> excommunicated. The three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon
=> left the church.

Three of Joseph Smith’s counselors fell—one even helped
plot his death. . . . The wolves among our flock are more
numerous and devious today than when President Clark made
a similar statement [in 1949].”{6}

Let us first examine the character of the three key
witnesses since their testimony is the most important.

In a letter dated December 16, 1838, Joseph Smith stated
this about the three key witnesses and John Whitmer,
one of the eight. “John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver
Cowdery, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention.”{7}

=> Martin Harris’ testimony shows him to be a gullible
=> and unstable man. He changed his religious conviction
=> approximately thirteen times. He had joined several
=> Christian denominations and other cult groups that
=> include the Universalists, Strangites, and the Shakers.
=> {8}(Ankerberg, 196)

In Doctrine and Covenants, Joseph Smith gave revelations
in which he denounces Martin Harris and calls him a
“wicked man.”{9} The Mormon leaders published an article
in the Elder’s Journal, a Mormon publication edited by
Joseph Smith, in which they accused Harris guilty of
“swearing, lying, cheating, swindling, drinking, with
every species of debauchery. . .” (Elders Journal, August,
1838, 59).{10} Here the leaders of the Mormon Church
strongly criticize the character of Harris.

Oliver Cowdery was also shown to be a very gullible man.

He was led astray by Hiram Page, one of the eight witnesses
who himself claimed to have divine revelations from his own
seer stone. Although Joseph Smith denounced Hiram as a
false teacher, Smith stated “to our grief, however, we soon
found that Satan had been lying in wait to deceive. . . .
Brother Hiram Page had in his possession a certain stone,
by which he obtained certain ‘revelations’ . . . all of
which were entirely at variance with the order of God’s
House, . . .”{11} Despite Smith’s condemnation, Oliver
Cowdery joined Page’s movement. Not only was he a gullible
man, he was also indicted on several accounts of fraudulent
business practices. The Mormon Church in a letter wrote,
“During the career of Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer’s
bogus money business, it got abroad into the world that
they were engaged in it. . . . We have evidence of a very
strong character that you are at this very time engaged
with a gang of counterfeiters, coiners, and blacklegs . .
.”{12} Cowdery was eventually excommunicated and he later
joined the Methodist Church.

David Whitmer wrote, “God spake to me again by his own
voice from the heavens, and told me to ‘separate myself
from among the Latter- day Saints, for as they sought to do
unto me, so should it be done unto them.” In the spring of
1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had
gone deep into error and blindness. . . . About the same
time that I came out, the Spirit of God moved upon quite a
number of the brethren who came out, with their families,
all of the eight witnesses who were then living (except the
three Smiths) came out; . . .”{13} Here David Whitmer
denounced the Mormon Church and encouraged people to follow
his example and the example of the other witnesses and
leave the church.

Joseph Smith in response attacked the character of David
Whitmer. Smith stated, “God suffered such kind of beings
to afflict Job . . . this poor man who professes to be much
of a prophet, has no other dumb ass to ride but David
Whitmer, to forbid his madness when he goes up to curse
Israel: and this ass not being of the same kind as Balaam’s
. . . he brays out cursing instead of blessings. Poor
ass!”{14}

=> The character and life of the eleven witnesses to the Book
=> of Mormon are very different from the Apostles of Christ.
=> None of the Apostles wavered in their defense of Christ,
=> even though all suffered and most died for their faith.

=> The Apostles remained consistent in their teaching and
=> never fell into any type of apostasy. Their lives were
=> marked by honesty and integrity. They were never indicted
=> for any criminal activity except for preaching Christ. The
=> character of the Book of Mormon’s eleven witnesses does not
=> strengthen Smith’s defense but cast further doubt on its
authenticity.

Probe Ministry website quote


1,006 posted on 07/13/2010 8:12:21 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Godzilla; John McDonnell
Reformed Egyptian...

That one gets me every time...

What was it in Shook's book, “Deformed English”....

“Doodling” as I think Baer said....

You are having too much fun Zilla.

1,007 posted on 07/13/2010 8:24:49 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Christians: Stand for Christ or stand aside...)
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