Is Sola Scriptura biblical? {Open)

www.cronos.com ^ | 31-May-2010 | Self Topic

[Cronos]

1. Where does the Bible claim sola scriptura?

2. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteous- ness; That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." --> it doesn't say that Scriptura is sufficient, just that it is profitable i.e. helpful. the entire verse from 14 to 17 says "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek: theopneustos = "God-breathed"), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works"
3. Where else do we have the term "sola scriptura" in the Bible?

4. Matthew 15 - Jesus condemns corrupt tradition, not all tradition. At no point is the basic notion of traidition condemned

5. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 "So then, brehtern, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter"

6. 1 Timothy 3:14-15

14Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

note that the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth is The Church of the Living God

7. Nowhere does Scripture reduce God's word down to Scripture ALONE. Instead the Bible tells us in many places that God's authoritative Word is found in The Church: in Tradition (2 Th 2:15, 3:6) and in the Church teaching (1 Pet 1:25, 2 Pet 1:20-21, Mt 18:17). This supports the Church principle of sola verbum Dei, 'the Word of God alone'.

8. The New Testament was compiled at the Council of Hippo in 393 and the Council of Carthage in 397, both of which sent off their judgements to Rome for the Pope's approval.

9. Yet, the people HAD the Canon, the Word of God before the scriptures were compiled, and even before some were written

10. Books that were revered in the 1st and 2nd centuries were left out of canon. Book slike the Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas and the Acts of Paul. Why?

11. There were disputes over 2 Peter, Jude and Revelation, yet they are in Scripture. Whose decision was trustworthy and final, if the Church doesn't teach with infallible authority?

12. How are Protestants sure that the 27 books of the New Testaments are themselves the infallible Word of God if fallible Church councils and Patriarchs are the ones who made up or approved the list (leaving out the Acts of Paul, yet leaving in Jude and Revelation)?

13. Or do Protestants have a fallible collection of infallible documents? And how do they know that Jude is infallible? And how do they know that the Epistle of Barnabus is not?

14. "And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ" (Eph. 4:11–15).

[Religion Moderator]

That is correct. My warnings are intending to keep flame wars from igniting. If a poster needs to leave the thread (e.g. thin skin) - I say so clearly and directly.

[Cronos]

Thank you for clarifying.

[bkaycee]

The mysteries of the Faith, the core dogma etc. are there in Holy Scripture as in Holy Tradition and The Church. Once more -- they do not contradict each other.

Can you give me the infallible list of Big 'T' tradition, so I may compare it with scripture?

Can you tell me what tradition Paul was teaching that he did not write?

[xone]

AND yet YOPIOS delude themselves that they are saved? --> delusions last longer -- I don't really see why you would object to this, xone, you don't agree to abortion or contraception either, if I'm not mistaken hence you don't fall into the category of YOPIOS who do do this

The list of LEONI's huge sins aren't really the issue. All sin, all need redemption, works don't redeem. Grace through faith (both gifts) in the completed work of salvation of Jesus is the biblical definition of salvation. All who receive this grace can be assured of salvation. That is the Word of God.

Which YOPIOS would not tell their single daughter to get a secret abortion to hide their shame? , Which YOPIOS would not divorce and remarry the wife or husband that they married for life before God? The --> Too blanket a statement, Leoni. There are YOPIOS who wouldn't.

And THIS is 'too blanket' a statement, but the rest of the foamy screed isn't? That is why I enjoy these. No pretext, no mercy, and of course no Scriptures. IOW true Catholicism, old school.

[Cronos]

Let's put it this way, if the post says "All Protestants think or do like this", I call it a blanket statement. But to say that Protestant philosophies all act this way, that's different.

I agree with Leoni that Protestant philosophy at it's core of sola scriptura, sola fide, the ONLY bit, is wrong as it has led to the splits we've seen since the reformating.

And where would you want scripture to be used specifically for that? To talk about how unity is important?

Which other statement would you object to, please?

[Cronos]

Sacred Tradition should not be confused with mere traditions of men, which are more commonly called customs or disciplines. Jesus sometimes condemned customs or disciplines, but only if they were contrary to God’s commands (Mark 7:8). He never condemned sacred Tradition, and he didn’t even condemn all human tradition.

Sacred Tradition and the Bible are not different or competing revelations. They are two ways that the Church hands on the gospel. Apostolic teachings such as the Trinity, infant baptism, the inerrancy of the Bible, purgatory, and Mary’s perpetual virginity have been most clearly taught through Tradition, although they are also implicitly present in (and not contrary to) the Bible. The Bible itself tells us to hold fast to Tradition, whether it comes to us in written or oral form (2 Thess. 2:15, 1 Cor. 11:2).

Sacred Tradition should not be confused with customs and disciplines, such as the rosary, priestly celibacy, and not eating meat on Fridays in Lent. These are good and helpful things, but they are not doctrines. Sacred Tradition preserves doctrines first taught by Jesus to the apostles and later passed down to us through the apostles’ successors, the bishops.

[Cronos]

Remember that this does not contradict scripture.

Scripture, by which we mean the Old and New Testaments, was inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16). The Holy Spirit guided the biblical authors to write what he wanted them to write. Since God is the principal author of the Bible, and since God is truth itself (John 14:6) and cannot teach anything untrue, the Bible is free from all error in everything it asserts to be true.

The notion, "The Bible is all I need," is not taught in the Bible itself. In fact, the Bible teaches the contrary idea (2 Pet. 1:20–21, 3:15–16). The "Bible alone" theory was not believed by anyone in the early Church.

It is new, having arisen only in the 1500s during the Protestant Reformation. The theory of SOLA Scriptura is a "tradition of men" that nullifies the Word of God, distorts the true role of the Bible, and undermines the authority of the Church Jesus established (Mark 7:1–8).

Although popular with many "Bible Christian" churches, the "Bible alone" theory simply does not work in practice. Historical experience disproves it. Each year we see additional splintering among "Bible-believing" religions. The Holy Spirit cannot be the author of this confusion (1 Cor. 14:33). God cannot lead people to contradictory beliefs because his truth is one. The conclusion? The "Bible alone" theory must be false.

[Cronos]

And all of the parts of Holy Tradition ARE confirmed by scripture! Since they do not contradict.

Case in point -- the priesthood. Many Protestants say that there should be no priests, that we are all priests, but they aren't reading the Bible completely.

In the Old Covenant, even though Israel was a kingdom of priests (Exod. 19:6), the Lord called certain men to a special priestly ministry (Exod. 19: 22). In the New Covenant, even though Christians are a kingdom of priests (1 Pet. 2:9), Jesus calls certain men to a special priestly ministry (Rom. 15:15–16). priests are ordained and thus empowered to serve the Church (2 Tim. 1:6–7) as pastors, teachers, and spiritual fathers who heal, feed, and strengthen God’s people—most importantly through preaching and the administration of the sacraments

But there is the other sacrament -- of Marriage: Most people are called to the married life. Through the sacrament of matrimony God gives special graces to help married couples with life’s difficulties, especially to help them raise their children as loving followers of Christ.

Marriage involves three parties: the bride, the groom, and God. When two Christians receive the sacrament of matrimony, God is with them, witnessing and blessing their marriage covenant. A sacramental marriage is permanent; only death can break it (Mark 10:1–12, Rom. 7:2–3, 1 Cor. 7:10–11). This holy union is a living symbol of the unbreakable relationship between Christ and his Church (Eph. 5:21–33).

Both are equally important roles -- both are part of the priesthood of Christians

[Cronos]

Another common question is about Confession, or correctly called Penance

Jesus gave his apostles power and authority to reconcile us to the Father. They received Jesus’ own power to forgive sins when he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained" (John 20:22–23).

Paul notes that "all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation. . . . So, we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us" (2 Cor. 5:18–20). Through confession to a priest, God’s minister, we have our sins forgiven, and we receive grace to help us resist future temptations.

[xone]

I agree with Leoni that Protestant philosophy at it's core of sola scriptura, sola fide, the ONLY bit, is wrong as it has led to the splits we've seen since the reformating.

ONLY (pun intended) from a Catholic point of view. Which is why Catholics misuse and abuse what SS means. Once more paraphrased: Scripture is the final authority on doctrinal disputes. All other kinds of books, tape series, sermons, internet postings etc. that discuss salvation and the things of God must be viewed through Scripture. They may sound good, but if they don't agree, Scriptural authority prevails. IOW all doctine must be based upon and have Scriptural warrant. I realize Catholics disagree, but considering the many references of "It is Written', the exhortations of the Apostles and the praiseworthy example of the Bereans that disagreement is silenced by the Word.

To talk about how unity is important?

Church Unity without doctrinal agreement is worse than the split in Christendom. There will be no spiritual unity in the Church until Our Lord returns again, because of sin. Unity with Rome means bowing again to the seat of Peter and acceptance of the extra-curricular dogmas/doctrine of the Roman Church. When Scripture can't be accepted as a referee amongst Christians, there can be no unity on earth.

[xone]

Holy Tradition ARE confirmed by scripture

How about doctrines? IC/perpetual virginity of Mary. Doctrine/dogma or traditions. As these states for Mary are unscriptual, how were they arrived at? Are doctines/dogmas subjected to Scriptural scrutiny?

[Cronos]

” tape series, sermons, internet postings etc. that discuss salvation and the things of God must be viewed through Scripture” —> and read my definition above, Sacred Tradition and the Bible are not different or competing revelations. They are two ways that the Church hands on the gospel. Apostolic teachings such as the Trinity, infant baptism, the inerrancy of the Bible, purgatory, and Mary’s perpetual virginity have been most clearly taught through Tradition, although they are also implicitly present in (and not contrary to) the Bible. The Bible itself tells us to hold fast to Tradition, whether it comes to us in written or oral form (2 Thess. 2:15, 1 Cor. 11:2).

[Cronos]

1. The IC does not contradict scripture.
2. There is the implicit reference to it (akin to the implicit references of the Trinity) in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.
3. This does not mean Mary did not need a Savior. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.
4. The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.

In conclusion, this is not EXPLICIT in Scripture, and yet even the idea/concept of SOLA scriptura is not explicit or implicit in scripture. And while it does not contradict scripture it is held true in Holy Tradition.

[bkaycee]

Sacred Tradition and the Bible are not different or competing revelations. They are two ways that the Church hands on the gospel. Apostolic teachings such as the Trinity, infant baptism, the inerrancy of the Bible, purgatory, and Mary’s perpetual virginity have been most clearly taught through Tradition, although they are also implicitly present in (and not contrary to) the Bible. The Bible itself tells us to hold fast to Tradition, whether it comes to us in written or oral form (2 Thess. 2:15, 1 Cor. 11:2).

Is that infallible list offered by the Magesterium or your best guess?

You claim purgatory and the Marian doctrines were taught by the apostles. Considering, these supposed doctrines where NOT written down, how can you know the apostles taught these?

Both doctrines were unknown to the church, historically for the first 500 years.

History is not on your side.

[sr4402]

Cronos, You should know John 1:1 (Darby Translation) "In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

How quickly we forget that Christ is described as the Word of God. Indeed, the Apostle John reconfirms this in Revelation "and [he is] clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and his name is called The Word of God.

When you attack Scripture you are attacking Christ and the preeminence of Christ.

[Grunthor]

I was just thinking; “I bet someone else can answer that one without being snarky since I probably can’t” And here you are.

Thank you.

[conservativegramma]

....you call a lady in a sari a Hindu priest. That's wrong. Do you admit that?

Nope Not only am I right - you are lying about it in your zeal to defend an apostate Pope.

I pray that you realise that you are straying from Christ and return to Christ's Church

The only ones straying from Christ and His Church are YOU and the rest of the apostate heretical magisterium of the RCC. Furthermore you are without excuse as the truth has been shown to you over and over on this thread. Your own prideful 'trust only in the magisterium authority' prevents you from seeing the truth. I refuse to join an apostate organization that calls itself 'a church'.

Pray for me all you want to - the Lord won't hear you. Proverbs 28:9 -"He who turns away his ear from listening to the law, [Scripture] Even his prayer is an abomination." Also, Psalm 66:18 - "If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;".

While you don't believe you are regarding evil in your heart, as long as you follow an apostate hierarchy as proven by those pictures I posted previously, you do in fact do so. So be my guest - pray with that rosary of yours to your hearts content (which in and of itself is an abomination to God.) - it won't mean squat. Even if you were praying directly to God instead of your Mary goddess, God still wouldn't hear you!

The only person in need of getting their eyes opened is you:

Roman Catholicism: Another Gospel

Explaining the Heresy of Catholicism

Roman Catholicism: Is it a Cult?

The Plain Truth About the Roman Catholic Church

Roman Catholicism: An Unbiblical Religion

A Primer on Roman Catholicism

There are a plethora of other sites I could post but in the interests of space and time I'll limit it to the above (not that you'll honestly read any of them anyhow). But others will and Lord willing their eyes WILL be opened.

There comes a point when Matthew 7:6 begins to apply: "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

And so I am now applying that verse in further dealings with you, and had asked you previously to stop pinging me, as I want nothing further to do with you or your heresies. If you're ready to learn I'll talk with you, otherwise bug off, as I'll have nothing to do with your apostate religion. Ping me again to push your apostasy on me and I'll notify the moderator.

In the meantime, I AM praying for your eyes to be opened. And my prayers are going directly to God, not some fake goddess figure who cannot and never will be a 'co-redemptrix'!

[Religion Moderator]

you are lying about it in your zeal to defend

Attributing motives to another Freeper is a form of "making it personal."

Also, accusing another Freeper of lying is attributing motive, i.e. the intent to deceive. Words such as "false" "wrong" "misleading" do not attribute motive.

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[conservativegramma]

Thank you, which is why I’m no longer responding to or want to be pinged by that poster.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You seem to be having trouble with my apt analogy, so I'll make it easier for you. Again.

Did the apostles and disciples faithfully render the words and teaching of Jesus Christ which the early church compiled into the Bible or not?