Posted on 08/27/2010 6:52:49 AM PDT by markomalley
Look more closely? Amazing! It is YOU ALONE versus The Old Testament Jews, today's Orthodox Jews, The Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox churches, and all the major Protestant denominations (until 20th century). If YOU don't even know who or what "Onan" is, you are manifesting that you have no desire to BEGIN to know the TRUTH.
Exactly. People who claim “I’m just showing/writing about etc reality” generally have the agenda of driving that reality into the gutter.
Art traditionally has been to inspire, uplift and ultimately, to glorify God. Not drag people further into the abyss and offend God and everyone who believes in Him.
Now, back to contraception - I’ll get back to the thread in a bit. But first of all, any contraception that is an abortifacient should be in the exact same file as “regular” abortion.
Did Onan commit a sin because he disobeyed his father by not fulfilling the Jewish tradition designed to preserve his brothers name? The Bible is unclear it only says that God was displeased by the totality of the act not the specifics.
To much up for interpretation to make a definitive statement. More clarity could have been give between the time of Onan and Christ, yet was not.
Are you saying that “I alone” cannot decipher the truth without the expert advice of a religious institution? Does God not want me to understand his will on my own, to form my own understanding and faith?
Church has it’s role but it cannot bring you to truth, only aid you in finding it. Each individual must reconcile their understandings and feelings with the Word. We cannot rely on others to tell us how we should feel or believe or we have no will of our own, only that of those who guide or mis-guide us. Free will allows us to choose a path of righteousness or lasciviousness and what you accept as truth will guide your journey.
Welcome to FR, verdugo.
The passage in Genesis is quite clear that Onan was killed for disobeying God. It DOES give enough specifics about the situation. Using it as an example that God hates contraception is quite a stretch. I know this if going to send some here into a tailspin and I’ll get flamed for it, but if someone is going to argue against contraception, this is not the best verse. It’s stretching to to mean that. They ought to find other, more substantial arguments and verses a lot more specific.
Genesis 38:7-10
7 But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the LORD’s sight; so the LORD put him to death.
8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Lie with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother.
10 What he did was wicked in the LORD’s sight; so he put him to death also.
I agree that there are some situations in which contraception is necessary and good. In all those situations, contraception, like sex, is for a husband and wife who have circumstances which call for the prevention of a pregnancy. The married couple should make the decisions about contraception for themselves, with advice from others only if the couple requests it.
I do not believe that sex or contraception is right outside of marriage.
That’s utter nonsense...anyone who uses birth control is not a Christian?
That’s completely and utterly absurd...the Bible has many things to say about who is a Christian and who is not...birth control is not one of them.
That’s why I could never be Catholic, they have so many non-Biblical beliefs that defy reality, like Mary being born without sin; Mary being taken up into Heaven; purgatory, not Hell, for non-saved; praying to anyone other than whom Jesus told us to pray to (He said “pray thusly: ‘Our Father, Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be they name’ “ not “My Mother, who art on Earth, hallowed be thy name.”)
Incredible...that you would have the audacity to declare reverent, devout Christians as being non-Christians because they practiced birth control.
Ridiculous.
Ed
Incredible...that you would have the audacity to declare reverent, devout Christians as being non-Christians because they practiced birth control.
Reverent and devout in their minds only. The world sees them for the hypocrites that they are. Any Christian that uses artificial birth control, and or is divorced and re-married after taking the first vows "until death do us part" is no Christian, and is a hypocrite. This is why the world calls Christians hypocrites, because the world SEES that practically all Christians are hypocrites.
How many Christians do you all know that are not divorced and re-married? Now how many do you know that do not use artificial birth control? FEW. Catholics? FEW
How many good leaders have never been allowed to be conceived by these false Christians!
Reverent and devout in their minds only. The world sees them for the hypocrites that they are. Any Christian that uses artificial birth control, and or is divorced and re-married after taking the first vows "until death do us part" is no Christian, and is a hypocrite. This is why the world calls Christians hypocrites, because the world SEES that practically all Christians are hypocrites.
How many Christians do you all know that are not divorced and re-married? Now how many do you know that do not use artificial birth control? FEW. Catholics? FEW
How many good leaders have never been allowed to be conceived by these false Christians! The leaders that we have are a punishment from God for the billions the were contracepted and aborted away.
I do not know any divorced Christians, all my friends are married-once-and-forever, and several of them use birth control, and yes...they ARE Christians, and yes, they are devout—your mistaken belief to the contrary.
Ed
**If it was morally wrong prior to 1930, what makes it morally right now?**
Morally wrong because it kills a life.
Well, contraception, in of itself, does not necessarily kill a life. Certain types do, like IUDs or possibly hormonal contraceptives...but other types, like diaphragms or condoms don't.
They are still wrong...because the individual or couple choosing to use such techniques are placing themselves in the position of God and blocking the natural procreative function of sex. Worshiping Narcissus rather than God, as it were. But that is different than committing a homicide.
OK, they kill a life and prevent a life......thus morally wrong.
Deut 25 7 However, if a man does not want to marry his brother’s wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, “My husband’s brother refuses to carry on his brother’s name in Israel. He will not fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to me.” 8 Then the elders of his town shall summon him and talk to him. If he persists in saying, “I do not want to marry her,” 9 his brother’s widow shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, “This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother’s family line.” 10 That man’s line shall be known in Israel as The Family of the Unsandaled.
I think it is clear that Onan’s act itself was condemned by God. Onan had a way out if he did not wish to preserve his brother’s lineage. He would have been highly unpopular, but not dead!
I'm familiar with the commandment:
“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.”
I'm not familiar with any such commandment dealing with coitus interruptus.
I think certain denominations latch on to Onan’s example to suggest many things they don't like about sex. In the dark days of Christianity it provided a way to label people as heretics and instill fear that they may be controlled. Much like Islam does today with Sharia Christians are guilty of the same in the past. It is my position this is a left over relic of that time.
The fact that Jesus had nothing to say on the matter tells me the interpretation if full of holes. It would have been an opportunity to provide better insight of what got expects from us under the new covenant.
“The fact that Jesus had nothing to say on the matter tells me the interpretation if full of holes.”
He also had nothing to say about rape or bestiality homosexuality or incest or masturbation...... The priciples were already in Scripture.
You speak with great confidence and piousness, seems almost sinful. I’m guessing you have not had many life experiences that would make you question if you were on the path. You are setting standards based on questionable interpretation of verse.
We are already forgiven if we accept Christ and follow his example. The FOLLOWING of Christ and our faith in him MAKE us Christians, good or bad, but Christians the same.
Calling Christian’s non-Christians is pretty offensive and scripture doesn’t seem to have your back in this situation.
Rape is actually allowed under Jewish law in some cases.
The point is the example of Onan is vague, men have read into it what they needed in order to control their “flock”. Christ felt no need to clarify it because he likely thought the matter settled.
There must be better more precise language that states the sin of contraception or it is a poor argument at best. I contend God punished him for not carrying on his brother’s name and disobeying his father, whom God favored.
I’m familiar with God’s position on homosexuality, that point is crystal clear. What verses are you referencing, other than the story of Onan, that says masturbation is a sin?
Your personal interpretation of scripture is just that, yours only. You mold scripture to suit own desires. It is your one man religion versus at least 4000 years of agreement about the evil of the spilling of the seed from the Jews, to the Catholic Church, to the Eastern Orthodox, to ALL the major Protestants sects (till the 20th century). It is you who are blind to your own history. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
Anyone that uses artificial contraceptives, is a false Christians.
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