Posted on 09/08/2010 10:35:01 PM PDT by bibletruth
Predestination...is it Biblical... or is it a doctrine of Beelzebub (devil)
“I’ve often argued that without a soul, we cannot possibly have “free will”. “
“...any discussion of “free will” must be in regards to the point of view of one living within the confines of time and space, such as we do.”
Agreed.
See my post # 10 wherein I my first point was that “God is eternal.”
I should have expanded on that to state that since God is the Creator and created all that is, including time, then God exists outside of what we consider to be ‘time’. I assumed that my third point that “God is omniscient (all knowing).” and explanation that He would have ‘perfect knowledge of the past, present and future’ would, together with the first point, be sufficient to indicate that God exists outside of what we consider to be ‘time’.
Mea Culpa. Sometimes I do not explain my thoughts well enough.
“Presbyterians (are Calvinists right?)”
Correct.
“Presbyterians... ...believe they can know who is already predestined, don’t they.
I’ve never seen that position stated in any Presbyterian Church of which I have been a member or attended, and I have been a member for over 55 years. However, there are several groups of Presbyterian denominations which have some different views on a number of theological issues, so that may be a viewpoint of one of them.
I would seriously question how anyone (other than God) can know “who is already predestined” and know the result of such predestination. However, saying that ‘everyone’ is predestined, but only God knows the result of said predestination, is not the same thing.
Ineffectual, again, from a very limited and I'd argue cosmically insignificant perspective: the perspective of the world.
By Christ's criteria ("greater love no man hath"), the firefighter made an act of perfect love--thus he was perfectly successful in his endeavor, if we have the eyes of heaven.
"For all that think Free Will is the demonstration of how God chooses in His mercy, read Romans 9:
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. "
"Free Will" is NOT "the demonstration of how God chooses in His mercy"; ie. it has nothing to do with "how God chooses in His mercy" and we can not "will" God to choose us. "Free Will" is God's gift to us, which allows us to freely choose to obey, disobey, heed, or ignore, (and which he already knows how we will choose).
"Free will, then, makes these scripture verses a lie: making God a liar.."
I believe that your reasoning is flawed, because it appears that you have "defined" man's "Free Will" as forcing a decision or choice upon God, thereby limiting God's own "Free Will".
I'm pretty sure that this definition does not exist anywhere in any Christian teachings or theology, nor in the Holy Bible. (I may be wrong - I have been, before, LOL.)
How can “apostasy” occur without having been in Christ?
woo — I just came across this thread — it’s a doozy...
I forgot about this one thread. Dozy!! Yes!!! Lol!!
I'll posit an unsolicited opinion here: there are degrees of predestinationalist thought and it is the 'third degree' which would be Satanic. This is a level of commitment to the idea which requires that belief in predestination, itself, be the saving condition.
I would call the purely academic consideration of predestination the 'first degree'. This agnostic attitude about the subject requires nothing of the believer beyond the the universal minimum. The 'second degree' would describe those who sincerely believe in predestinatinalism without making that belief a requirement.
But the 'third degree' is occupied by people who have made the certitude of predestinationalism itself the saving grace, at the expense of the original condition. These people will hold that those who believe according to the original condition, but who believe that they do so by choice, are nevertheless not saved. For those in the third degree, the original narrative is just some packaging, a wrapper or a candy-coating of some sort for the real saving truth. Of course, their "truth" is somehow both circular (predestined to be predestined) and contradictory (predestined to choose to believe in the inability to choose to believe). It's practically Satanic because it blames the Creator for everything and turns all sinners into his victims. It's essentially Satanic because, in a fit of overweening pride, proponents believe that they have wrapped their minds around the true nature of the Omnipotent and trapped him in a logical snare. It is efficiently Satanic because it lies to itself.
Consider that you'll never meet a predestinationalist who thinks but that his own salvation is predestined and that the salvation of all others depends upon their agreement with that.
Take a step back and look at the foundational illogic of the message of predestination. You are trying to convince people that there's no convincing people and that they should choose to believe that they can't choose to believe. Besides, what is the point in arguing about a purely mechanical universe when there is no room for argument in a purely mechanical universe.
As for omnipotence (can do all), here's something my Omnipotent can do; offer a choice. You seem to deny that yours can.
Thanks for the ping. Doozy is an understatement, dear.
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