Another Priest Automatically Excommunicated Despite Bishop Olmsted’s Efforts

CE ^ | September 22, 2010 | John Quinn

[NYer]

Fr. Vernon Meyer, automatically excommunicated himself when he rejected the teachings of the Catholic Church concerning women ordination. Meyer participated in the “ordination” of Elaine Groppenbacher in Tempe, AZ last month. For Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted, this is the fifth priestly excommunication for serious refusal of faithful obedience to the Catholic Church, according to The Arizona Republic.

Referring to Meyer, Bishop Olmsted states: “Actions such as these are extremely serious and carry with them profoundly harmful consequences for the salvation of the souls participating in this attempted ordination. To feign the conferral of the Sacrament of Holy Orders results in the penalty of excommunication. This penalty applies both to the person attempting the ordination and the person attempting to be ordained.”

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, #1577: “Only a baptized man validly receives sacred ordination. The Lord Jesus chose men to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.”

This is not the first disagreement between Fr. Meyer and Catholic Doctrine. In 2004 Fr. Meyer was under obedience to Bishop Olmsted to recant a joint declaration Meyer signed which supported “full acceptance” of gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered individuals in churches.

Fr. Meyer apparently told The Arizona Republic that he signed the declaration “after making sure it did not conflict with Catholic positions.” This statement contradicts the actual declaration, which states: “Homosexuality is not a sickness, not a choice, and not a sin.” Two sentences later, the declaration proclaims that all aspects of the homosexual lifestyle should have “full acceptance and inclusion.”

Despite the pastoral efforts of Bishop Olmsted, Fr. Meyer is now a United Church of Christ minister and is the Director of the Arizona Center for Theological Studies, which he founded. Fletch Wideman, local president of the pro-homosexual group P-FLAG reports “the United Church of Christ, has taken a strong pro-gay stand.” This comment would be supported by high percentage of United Church of Christ clergy signing the petition.

The Arizona Center for Theological Studies reportedly values “a deep respect and appreciation for the various interpretative traditions within Christianity.” And has courses on Ecumenical Methods of Theology and studies the Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian and Islamic religions among other diverse topics.

The center has two sponsors. One is John Chuchman, who authored the book “I Love My Church, BUT, OH MY GOD!” In the book, Chuchman states why he is “so excited about Organizations like Call to Action and Voice of the Faithful,” organizations known to be active in their support of abortion, homosexual rights, contraception and women’s “ordination.”

Bishop Olmsted has been under attack for requesting his clergy and religious to remain faithful to the vows of obedience they took when they dedicated their lives to serving the Catholic Church. Many people are calling Bishop Olmsted intolerant and unpastoral. This is not true. He has exhausted every resource to bring his sheep back to the flock. How truly sad it is that some of his priests choose tolerance as their supreme pillar and foundation of truth.

“And all that will live godly in Christ Jesus, shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall grow worse and worse: erring, and driving into error” — 2 Timothy 3:12-13.

[sitetest]

Please read the article and then re-read my post.

[saradippity]

I've had dealings with him too. What a crafty,sly wordsmith he is and has always been. He got a Phd. from some catholic pretender school in Dayton Ohio and had a position as a teacher in the Kino Institute in Phoenix. He and his fellow catholic pretenders under the addled leadership of our exbishop O'Brien almost destroyed the Church here.

Poor Bishop Olmsted had a lot to contend with when he arrived and he is doing a wonderful job despite a whole lot of misinformed catholics,both clergy and lay,sprinkled with some evil infiltrators.

[StonyMan451]

He is also no longer a Priest.

In the commonly understood sense, that's true. However, in the real, sacramental sense, he is still a priest. Once a priest, always a priest. He even retains the power (notice, I said power, not right) to say a valid Mass. And in the event of an emergency, he could even validly hear someone's confession. If he were to repent, and to return to the Church, he could be restored to active ministry without having to be ordained again.

I just wanted to clarify the theology of the matter. It would, from a theological perspective, be more accurate to say that he is no longer a member of the Catholic clergy.

[CynicalBear]

>>“Actions such as these are extremely serious and carry with them profoundly harmful consequences for the salvation of the souls participating in this attempted ordination.<<

The Catholic Church decides who gets Salvation? Wow! I thought it said “believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved-and your house”. That is the Gospel. Taking away from that or adding to that is addressed in God’s word.

For me and my house we will serve the Lord Jesus. Not the Church.

[ichabod1]

Boy, you can say that again!

[ichabod1]

Still, in the UCC where they think they’re having dinner with the Lord instead of consuming him body, blood, soul, and divinity, using whatever made up liturgy they’re using this week, he wouldn’t be able to confect a real sacrament would he? Trap Jesus into the host? That would be so wrong.

[ichabod1]

Don’t mock the Church and you might get away with that. You won’t know until you die.

[CynicalBear]

>>Don’t mock the Church and you might get away with that. You won’t know until you die<<

Don’t mock the Church? The “Church” is NOT God.

If I can’t know until I die then I can’t trust what the Bible says. I know, and I’m not dead.

[StonyMan451]

Actually, if over bread he says the words “This is my body”, and over wine he says the words “This is my blood”, and he does so with the intention of consecrating them, then they would, in fact, become the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. Yes, it would be very wrong to do so under the circumstances you describe, but that’s just proof of how much Jesus loves us, that he would open himself up to such abuse. But isn’t that what he did when he was crucified in the first place? It really isn’t very different from that. That’s why we must treat the Eucharist with such respect and reverence.

[FourtySeven]

OHHH, I finally understand the title of the article now.

The way I read it, I thought it was implying Bp Olmstead was trying to excuse Fr Meyer’s actions!

Let’s keep all in our prayers.

[FourtySeven]

Wow! An octuplicate post! A rarity indeed! < /Steve Irwin voice >

Haha, excuse the friendly jibe. I’ve been the victim of those hangs myself; I got a triplicate once.

[Mrs. Don-o]

It's not "the Catholic Church" decides who gets salvation. (I think we all know who the Judge of that is.) But we do know that sin=separation from God, and therefore grievous deliberate sin puts your soul in very grave danger.

Which is what NYer said.

[CynicalBear]

>>It’s not “the Catholic Church” decides who gets salvation.<<

Catholic doctrine specifically states that without the sacraments there is no salvation. At least as I have read the doctrines and heard the “experts”. It is pretty commonly known that if the Church excommunicates someone thereby denying the sacraments they lose their Salvation.

Correct me if I am wrong and refer to specific Church doctrine.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to correct this common misconception.

Here's a good short ststement from the Catechism, stating that a person can be saved even without Baptism or any other sacrament (link) -- notice please the emphasis on "the influence of Grace.".

And here's a good summary of the way the Cathjloic Church sees it--- as a "medicinal," not a "punitive" penalty.

This is a topic the Catechism returns to over and over; to read a little more incontext, I'll give you these Catechism search results.

The Catholic Church is not in the business of damning. Nobody on earth has that power.

[CynicalBear]

>>Thank you for giving me the opportunity to correct this common misconception.<<

The Catechism of the Church is pretty clear. There are instances beyond ones control where they have exceptions but it is not the norm.

1283 Children not baptized who die require trust but are not saved because they need to be prayed for to receive salvation

>>1283 With respect to children who have died without Baptism, the liturgy of the Church invites us to trust in God’s mercy and to pray for their salvation.<<

>>1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.<<

1263 Sins are forgiven “by Baptism”? I don’t think so.

>>1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.<<

1257 Again, “salvation is bound to the sacrament of Baptism”? That totally contradicts the statement “believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved-and your house”.

>>Because the bread and wine are believed to be truly changed into the Body and Blood of Christ, any pieces that are not distributed at the Mass must be either consumed by the priest or stored in a special container called a tabernacle. (The wine must always be consumed.) Roman Catholics worship the Eucharistic species stored in the tabernacle. Especially notable is the practice of genuflection when entering into its presence. A special blessing, called Eucharistic Benediction may be given using the consecrated elements.<<

I won’t even go into how the Catholic Church connects the Eucharist to Salvation but will address the idol worship contained in the Sacrament.

[Mrs. Don-o]

• Your interpretation is that “Children not baptized who die require trust but are not saved because they need to be prayed for to receive salvation.”

  Permit me to note that we pray for everyone’s salvation. We pray for people known to us and people unknown to us, we pray for people famous for their sanctity and we pray for notorious sinners. We are quite promiscuous about praying. The fact that we pray for them does not mean that that they are, as you say, “not saved.” It means we are always free to ask for God’s mercy. He never tells us, “Stop praying!” and He alone can save.

• 1263 Sins are forgiven “by Baptism”?

  That's just a shorthand way of saying it's God who forgives sins by Baptism. And that's by no means the only way -- He's got many ways. He understands that we are composite creatures of body & spirit, and He communicates with us by many a physical sign to impart His grace. The New Testament is simply full of this: everything the God-Man Jesus did was an outward sign that imparted grace. Otherwise, why did God bother with the Incarnation at all?

  He could just sit in heaven, invisible and rather vaporish, so to speak, and "will" everything to happen "spiritually." But instead, He bends down to us, through the Sacraments and above all the Great Sacrament of His incarnation, to communicate through physical, material, bodily signs --on our level--- in order to raise up us to His.

  But pay attention to the part that you quoted here: “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.” That’s a key point. We don’t think God is limited by anything whatsoever.

  That’s why we can affirm, along with you, “believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved--and your house”. God can save you --- and your house. How about that!

• I won’t even go into how the Catholic Church connects the Eucharist to Salvation but will address the idol worship contained in the Sacrament.

  Idol? Worship directed to Christ who is God incarnate, is not directed to an idol. Perhaps you are speaking of the Sacrament without discerning the Lord’s Body?

1 Corinthians 11:27-29 (King James Version) Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

I've got to make supper, so farewell for now, and peace.

[CynicalBear]

>> Permit me to note that we pray for everyone’s salvation.<<

Of course we pray for people but not after they die. Once a person dies their destiny is determined. No Salvation after death for those who didn’t have it prior to death.

>> That’s just a shorthand way of saying it’s God who forgives sins by Baptism. And that’s by no means the only way — He’s got many ways.<<

There are NOT “many ways”. Romans 4:23-25, teaches that there is no diversity in God’s salvation program. There is only one way of salvation. It is the way God the Father revealed through his Son Jesus, who declared, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6).

FAITH in Jesus death and Resurrection is the only way to salvation. No ceremony, ritual, or act of man.

>> But pay attention to the part that you quoted here: “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.” That’s a key point. We don’t think God is limited by anything whatsoever.<<
But the Catechism says that salvation is bound to the sacrament of Baptism. Salvation is through FAITH not through Baptism.
>> Idol? Worship directed to Christ who is God incarnate, is not directed to an idol.<<
The following paragraph shows that the Catholics believe that the bread and wine are “truly changed into the Body and Blood of Christ” which is a graven image. They then “worship the Eucharistic species stored in the tabernacle”. That is idol worship. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”

>>Because the bread and wine are believed to be truly changed into the Body and Blood of Christ, any pieces that are not distributed at the Mass must be either consumed by the priest or stored in a special container called a tabernacle. (The wine must always be consumed.) Roman Catholics worship the Eucharistic species stored in the tabernacle. Especially notable is the practice of genuflection when entering into its presence. A special blessing, called Eucharistic Benediction may be given using the consecrated elements.<<