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"Baptism Now Saves You" - Nuts & Bolts - Tim Staples
Envoy ^ | 1997 | Tim Staples

Posted on 10/04/2010 11:50:44 AM PDT by GonzoII

Scenario:

It's nine o'clock on Saturday morning. You've taken your car to the local garage for new tires and an oil change. Bill, the manager, introduces himself with a broad smile and a firm handshake. As he finishes the paperwork and you're signing on the dotted line, you notice him eyeing the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe on your T-shirt. Bill asks, "I gather from your T-shirt that you're Catholic. I was raised Catholic, and I respect Catholics, but . . ." (You were waiting for that infamous conjunction.) "I now have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, one that's not dependent on being a member of a church or denomination."
He smiles widely. You nod politely as he tells you how he accepted Jesus Christ as his "personal Lord and Savior," how he was "born again," and how he now attends a Bible teaching church "where the Word is really preached." As he hands you your receipt he pops the question: "Have you been born again?"

Your response:

As a matter of fact, I have. In fact, I was born again the Bible way. But before we cover that, I have to tell you that I find it odd that you left the Catholic Church in order to find a personal relationship with Jesus. I have a very personal relationship with Jesus through prayer as well as through the Church and the sacraments He instituted. He gave us these gifts so we can know with certainty the truth He came to preach and experience the divine life of grace in our lives. My relationship with Jesus couldn't be any more personal." Bill furrows his brow. "Huh. But I thought you were Catholic."

(Excerpt) Read more at envoymagazine.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: baptism; catholic
"The one who "believes and is baptized will be saved"
1 posted on 10/04/2010 11:50:49 AM PDT by GonzoII
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To: GonzoII

Romans 10:9 states it very clearly...”If you confess with you mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the grave, then you shall be saved.”

While baptism is the commanded next step it is not the “saving” next step. Confession of faith and internalized active belief are the saving steps!


2 posted on 10/04/2010 12:20:45 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (True enlightenment occurs when one discovers just how much like God, one is NOT!)
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To: GonzoII

I saw nothing in my Bible about infants being baptized by the disciples, Jesus or John the Baptist only adults or folks who had attained the age where they knew from right from wrong and had been convicted for their sins!


3 posted on 10/04/2010 12:27:34 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (True enlightenment occurs when one discovers just how much like God, one is NOT!)
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To: GonzoII

They’re three two reasons that the church baptizes infants:

Infant mortatlity was high in the early church.

Baptized infants were counted as members which translated into power.


4 posted on 10/04/2010 12:37:14 PM PDT by bjorn14 (Woe to those who call good evil and evil good. Isaiah 5:20)
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To: GonzoII

The Catholic Catechism makes it rather clear that they believe that baptism is a requirement for salvation. Including the idea that if a person dies before being baptized one is to pray and hope for that persons salvation.


5 posted on 10/04/2010 1:39:47 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: GonzoII

I never get in discussions with strangers about my or their religions beliefs. If someone attempts to bring it up I politely deflect the question. If they persist, I end the conversation.


6 posted on 10/04/2010 1:52:52 PM PDT by balch3
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To: mdmathis6

Romans is addressed to Christians, all of whom had already been baptized. That’s the context of Rom 10:9. It’s not giving you an alternative to baptism, it assumes baptism already.


7 posted on 10/04/2010 3:20:29 PM PDT by Campion
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To: mdmathis6
re:Confession of faith and internalized active belief are the saving steps!

Never understood this claim by Protestants, to me it's like predestination, just as no one knows for sure if they are one of the predestined, no Protestant can know if they have the "faith", or if they are really have an "internalized active belief", both requisites are undefined. A Protestant can partake in all kinds of mortal sins, as always defined by the Catholic Church, like divorce and re-marriage, use of contraceptives, lying, stealing, hate of his neighbors, even homosexuality (there are actually ordained ministers that preach proudly their homosexuality), etc., and all say that they have "the faith and have internalized active belief".

A Protestant says: "I'm saved by Confession of faith and internalized active belief".

The Catholic Church responds:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

8 posted on 10/04/2010 5:47:18 PM PDT by verdugo
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To: mdmathis6
"While baptism is the commanded next step it is not the “saving” next step."

I'll side with Scripture on that one:

1 Pet 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. 21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also

Note the the analogy of the actual water of the flood in context with the statement about baptism ---real water.

9 posted on 10/04/2010 9:17:01 PM PDT by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII
Note the the analogy of the actual water of the flood in context with the statement about baptism ---real water.

Why don't we show those verses in context?

1 Peter 3:18-22
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

10 posted on 10/04/2010 10:38:58 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: verdugo
Unless Pope Eugene was speaking of the universal church - which is all believers in Christ that are members of his spiritual body - then he was in error, and if he made such a terrible error, then he cannot be infallible.

As far as no one knows for sure if they are one of the predestined, no Protestant can know if they have the "faith", I must disagree completely. Although I do not believe we are born "predestined" for heaven or hell, we certainly can know from Scripture that we have been saved and that we can KNOW we have eternal life. See:

I John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

11 posted on 10/04/2010 10:49:26 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: GonzoII

Did not in the Acts of the Apostles, it was said that a whole household got baptized? That had to include infants as well?


12 posted on 10/05/2010 3:02:59 AM PDT by Biggirl (GO UCONN FOOTBALL!!!!!!!!!!! :)=^..^=)
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To: mdmathis6

There are scripture verses that connect each of the following to salvation: faith, confession, repentance, and baptism.

Do we pick which we agree with and pass over the others cafeteria style?


13 posted on 10/05/2010 5:42:45 AM PDT by SharpRightTurn (White, black, and red all over--America's affirmative action, metrosexual president.)
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To: boatbums
re: Unless Pope Eugene was speaking of the universal church - which is all believers in Christ that are members of his spiritual body - then he was in error, and if he made such a terrible error, then he cannot be infallible..

Each Protestant is just one person making up their own religion as they go along, they're all winging it, to themselves they are more infallible than a pope, they are their own god. Each Protestant says, I will not serve, I am God.

You know nothing about infallibility, predestination, or the Catholic Church.

No point in discussing anything about the true Faith with Protestants. If I were to correct the misunderstanding in ONE person for ONE question of life, there would still be millions of other errors to deal with in that ONE person.

Your beliefs are unique to you, as Protestantism has no beliefs that require adherence, each Protestant basically invents his own church of one. That is not the case with Catholics. The Catholic Church has doctrines that are unchangeable, and a Catholic MUST believe them, or he is not a Catholic. PERIOD.

A Protestant can call themselves a Christian in a state of grace with a direct line to the Holy Ghost, even if they don't believe Christ is God.

A Catholic is a heretic if he denies one dogma. A Catholic who dies with one mortal sin (heresy is a mortal sin) goes to hell.

Protestantism is like a body care system that teaches that one must eat and exercise to live better. But they leave it up to the person to figure out the rest.

Catholicism is like a body care system that tells you that you must eat good food, what foods to eat, and in what quantities, and what foods MUST NEVER be eaten. It says that you must exercise, how much to exercise, and exactly what exercises to do, and which you MUST never do. And if you don't follow the most important teachings which are vital to your survival, you are no longer a Catholic.

14 posted on 10/05/2010 5:44:20 AM PDT by verdugo
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To: GonzoII

There is NO ‘born again’ in the Greek, it is ‘born from above’. And NONE will see the Kingdom of God unless they are born of woman just like Christ set the example. And NOT all that are born from above will enter the Kingdom of God... but that is the choice they make freely.


15 posted on 10/05/2010 5:48:19 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: mdmathis6
Which begs the question of why every example of salvation in the new testament after the establishment of the church involves baptism.

The new testament over and over again makes it plain that baptism is how our sins are remitted. It is the point where God acts on us and forgives us.

The televangelist gospel is not the gospel of the new testament.

16 posted on 10/05/2010 5:55:58 AM PDT by hopespringseternal
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To: balch3
I never get in discussions with strangers about my or their religions beliefs

Ashamed of the Gospel and of Jesus Christ, or do you just wish to disobey the primary directive for all Believers?

Or are you of a false/pagan religion or agnostic?

17 posted on 10/05/2010 6:03:18 AM PDT by The Theophilus
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To: SharpRightTurn
Do we pick which we agree with and pass over the others cafeteria style?

I prefer the proper exegetical study of the Scriptures, not the eisegetical version of the Papists.

Q: How many people did Jesus Christ or Paul baptize?

Q: So does your Church immolate people upon salvation?

Luke 3:16 "John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." (ref: Acts: 1:4,5; 2:1-4; 10:44-48; 11:15-17 etc.)

Q: Tell me about the baptism of the thief on the Cross, or of the Old Testament saints we read about in Hebrews 11 Hall of Faith - or are they burning in Hell?

18 posted on 10/05/2010 6:12:43 AM PDT by The Theophilus
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To: The Theophilus
“I prefer the proper exegetical study of the Scriptures, not the eisegetical version of the Papists.

“Q: How many people did Jesus Christ or Paul baptize?”

Paul, the author of Romans 6:3-10, at Corinth baptized at least Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas (I believe Paul said he couldn't remember if he had baptized anyone else there); beyond that, I'm not sure how many he personally baptized in other areas as opposed to letting others conduct the baptisms.

“Q: So does your Church immolate people upon salvation?”

“Luke 3:16 “John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.” (ref: Acts: 1:4,5; 2:1-4; 10:44-48; 11:15-17 etc.)”

Our congregation does not thrown anyone into the fire. The only ones I am aware of in the New Testament of being “baptized with fire” were the apostles on the day of Pentecost after the resurrection when tongues of fire were seen upon them.

“Q: Tell me about the baptism of the thief on the Cross, or of the Old Testament saints we read about in Hebrews 11 Hall of Faith - or are they burning in Hell?”

Was the thief on the cross living during the law of Moses or after the institution of the church on the day of Pentecost when Peter gave the first gospel sermon?

During that first gospel sermon recorded in Acts chap. 2, the Apostle Peter, when asked what the crowd should do in regard to their sins, responded as follows:

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Now a question for you:

Q: When Philip preached Jesus to the Ethiopian eunuch, what prompted the eunuch, out of the blue, to be asked to be baptized? Why, when the eunuch made this off-the-wall request (after all, how could “preaching Jesus” have anything to do with baptism?), did Philip not reproach the eunuch, telling him that the question smacked of legalism that that all the eunuch needed to do was to recite “the sinner's prayer”?

Acts 8:

30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31”How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:
“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.”[e]

34The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?”[f] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea..

I'll be happy to discuss this further with you but it may have to wait until I'm off work.

19 posted on 10/05/2010 6:47:59 AM PDT by SharpRightTurn (White, black, and red all over--America's affirmative action, metrosexual president.)
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To: The Theophilus
re: I prefer the proper exegetical study of the Scriptures, not the eisegetical version of the Papists.

No, you prefer your own interpretation, that's all, you are winging it.

The clearest command in the New Testament from Jesus Christ was to the absolute requirement of baptism for salvation. If that's not clear, then the more obscure Holy Trinity, the divinity of Christ, AND REALLY ALL OF THE NEW TESTAMENT is good for nothing.

Baptism is simple to perform, and takes like 10 seconds. Anyone that does not get baptized because they hard headedly say it's not required, are their own god of a fool.

20 posted on 10/05/2010 6:53:24 AM PDT by verdugo
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To: The Theophilus
re: Baptism is simple to perform, and takes like 10 seconds. Anyone that does not get baptized because they hard headedly say it's not required, are their own god of a fool.

I take that back. Since the most severe tortures of Hell are reserved for those who are baptized, Catholics priests first, then Catholic laity. If one is not going to live the faith (the only true faith, Catholicism), they likely are better off not baptized. God's grace works even in hell, as God himself in His providence will place a person in a place where he would not receive the knowledge of the requirement of being a baptized Catholic, in order to spare the person, who God knows he will reject the faith, form a deeper eternal suffering in hell.

Therefore, maybe you shouldn't get baptized.

21 posted on 10/05/2010 7:02:29 AM PDT by verdugo
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To: The Theophilus
re: Baptism is simple to perform, and takes like 10 seconds. Anyone that does not get baptized because they hard headedly say it's not required, are their own god of a fool.

I take that back. Since the most severe tortures of Hell are reserved for those who are baptized, Catholics priests first, then Catholic laity. If one is not going to live the faith (the only true faith, Catholicism), they likely are better off not baptized. God's providence and mercy works even unto hell. God in His providence will place a person in this world some place where he would not receive the knowledge of the requirement of being a baptized Catholic (India, China, Africa, Russia, USA, England), in order to spare the person, who God knows will reject Catholicism, from a deeper eternal suffering in hell.

Therefore, maybe you shouldn't get baptized.

22 posted on 10/05/2010 7:08:33 AM PDT by verdugo
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To: Biggirl

“Did not in the Acts of the Apostles, it was said that a whole household got baptized? That had to include infants as well?”

I don’t think so, you have to think about other scriptures in regards to baptism. you must first believe in Jesus, example: Ethiopian Eunuch asked what prevents me from being Baptized, response was “If you Believe”.

I don’t think infants believe.

Also purpose of baptism is that it’s a work of the Lord Jesus, how he washes away our sin, (not a work of us). I don’t think any infant has any sins to wash away.

hear, believe, repent, baptized, confess are all related to our salvation, just because one passage does not mention one of these does not mean it not relevant.


23 posted on 10/05/2010 7:17:28 AM PDT by NoDRodee (U>S>M>C)
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To: The Theophilus

1. it’s a personal thing to me. I extend others the same courtesy.

2. in my experience, those discussions almost never turn out well.


24 posted on 10/05/2010 11:29:23 AM PDT by balch3
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To: The Theophilus

1. it’s a personal thing to me. I extend others the same courtesy.

2. in my experience, those discussions almost never turn out well.


25 posted on 10/05/2010 11:29:40 AM PDT by balch3
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To: balch3

sorry about the double post.


26 posted on 10/05/2010 11:31:03 AM PDT by balch3
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To: GonzoII

Step One:

Go get your Bible from the back seat of your car and ask Bill to show you where in John 3 Jesus mentions "accepting Him as your personal Lord and Savior." He wont be able to because the passage doesn't say anything like that. Explain that he's reading something into a text that is simply not there.
"The Bible way of getting born again," you explain, "is by being baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Anything else is unbiblical." Now ask him to look at the context of chapters one through three of the Gospel of John.


First, Christ Himself is baptized (John 1:31-34; cf. Matt. 3:16). When He is baptized, the heavens are opened and the Holy Spirit descends upon Him in the form of a dove. Obviously, Jesus didn't need to be baptized. In fact, St. John the Baptist exclaimed that he needed to be baptized by Christ (cf. Matt. 3:14). The Lord was baptized to show us the way of salvation (cf. Luke 1:77), the way the heavens are opened to us, and the way Holy Spirit descends upon us.


Second, He performs His first miracle in John 2:1-11 by transforming water into wine. Notice, that He used water from "six stone jars . . . for the Jewish rites of purification." According to the Septuagint (Greek) canon of the Old Testament, these ritual purification waters were called baptismoi, in essence, the Old Testaments "baptismal" waters (cf. Numbers 19:9-19). The Old Testament rites and sacrifices were only "a shadow of the good things to come" (Heb. 10:1). They could never take away sins. Scripture scholars point out that the number six was often used to denote imperfection. Christ transformed the Old Testament water of "ritual washings" into wine, a symbol of New Covenant perfection. (cf. Joel 3:18, Matt. 9:17).


Third, in John 3:22, immediately after Christ's "born again" discourse to Nicodemus, what does He do? He and His disciples go out into the countryside and begin to baptize. Also, in John 4:1-2, His disciples alone are seen baptizing. The Lord most likely baptized His disciples (though this can't be proven, only inferred from the text), and then they went out and baptized the multitudes.


Let's recap the progression of events in the Gospel of John: Christ is baptized, He elevates and sanctifies the waters of baptism, He gives the "how to be born again" discourse, He baptizes the disciples and commissions them to go out and baptize. Clearly, in view of the context of these passages, Christ's words in John 3 mean that baptism is the way one is born again.


Saying that the "water" spoken of in John 3:5 is amniotic fluid goes way beyond stretching the context of this passage. John 3:5 ("No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit") is not describing two events, but one. For example, the text doesn't imply something like: "No one can enter the kingdom of God without being first born of water and then born again of spirit." He is speaking of the event of water baptism, the effects of which were depicted for us in His own baptism: He went down into the water, the Holy Spirit descended on Him, the voice of the Father was heard saying, "This is My beloved Son, with Whom I am well pleased." This is what happens at the sacrament of baptism. We are made right with God, justified, and put into a son/Father relationship.


27 posted on 10/05/2010 6:37:04 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: GonzoII

Step Three:

Bill thinks for a second. "I think you're confusing spiritual baptism with water baptism. Water baptism can't save you. 1 Corinthians 12:12 says that it is the Spirit that baptizes us into Christ, not some man."
"Yes, I agree," you begin. "The Holy Spirit does incorporate us into Christ, just as the Holy Spirit convince[s] the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment (John 16:8). But don't forget that the Holy Spirit also uses human instruments to convey the message. For example, St. Paul said, How shall they hear without a preacher? (Rom. 10:14). The same is true for baptism. It is an action of grace performed by the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the human action of the one who baptizes."


"In Acts 2:38 St. Peter exclaimed, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. In Acts 22:16, Ananias declared to Saul, who had already professed faith in Christ as Lord in verse 10, Why delay? Get up and be baptized and your sins washed away, calling on His name. 1 Peter 3:20-21 says a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The passage is clear: Baptism now saves you. You can tell that Bill is shaken by this. He's not as assertive and confident as he was just a short time ago. He says, "But Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For by grace (not by baptism) you have been saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."


"Exactly," you respond. "That is the description of the initial grace of salvation that we know comes through baptism." Just then, a mechanic brings your car keys to Bill. As you walk together toward the car, you can almost see the wheels turning in his mind. Clearly, he's reflecting on your answers to his questions.


You decide to take the extra step. "You know, I've got an extra copy of an apologetics booklet here in my car that Id like to leave with you. It goes into greater depth on the sacrament of baptism and what the Bible says about it. It contains many more Bible verses and even has quotes from the early Church Fathers that show what the early Christians believed about baptismal regeneration. Would you be willing to read it? Maybe we could get together and discuss this issue again sometime."


A moments pause. "Why not," Bill says. "I've enjoyed our conversation, even though I don't agree with everything you said. One things for sure, though. I see I need to study this subject more carefully. Well have to continue this discussion."


"Yes, Id like that," you smile as you shake hands. "See you in about 3,000 miles."


28 posted on 10/05/2010 6:41:42 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: verdugo
Wow! All divine mercy is thrown out! He comes as a man stretches his arms out to die on a cross for mankind. He is very humble. So then later because somebody does not understand fully what you mean and thats that so you are out of here. You go to hell.

Take the starch out of your collar.

Pleeeeaaaasssseeee! Wow!

29 posted on 10/05/2010 11:28:05 PM PDT by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: johngrace

The Lemmings are stampeding down the high cliffs like a waterfall, and they want to hear only pretty words.


30 posted on 10/06/2010 5:59:12 AM PDT by verdugo
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