Posted on 10/11/2010 2:57:22 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
Not all charismatics believe this movement. Just to point out.
God is not a spirit of confusion.
Thanks
Certainly, but it is accepted by many (most?) Pentecostal Protestants.
I have had a lot of experience in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles (see my post #60) so I'm not speaking as a complete outsider.
Of course I’d really like to hear the Catholic side of the procession story.
I’ll take a stab at it for you....the statue is on a relatively heavy platform, the statue itself weighs something....one of the front carriers stumbles and falls.....the weight shifts and the other front carrier, trying to stabilize the situation also falls and much of the weight falls on him. We now have the 2 hospitalized.....the other two, the weight having fallen forward, suffer only minor injuries as they too fall, but with none of the weight having any effect on their fall.....pretty simple stuff.
Wow. Thanks for proving my central thesis about discernment of spirits.
So, you would honestly have us believe that this Goddess Chiti taught by Kundalini Swami Muktananda is the same as the Christian Holy Spirit???From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Muktananda Born 16 May 1908(1908-05-16) Died 2 October 1982 (aged 74) Swami Muktananda (May 16, 1908-October 2, 1982) is the monastic name of an Indian Hindu guru and disciple of Bhagavan Nityananda. Swami Muktananda was the founder of Siddha Yoga. He wrote a number of books on the subjects of Kundalini Shakti, Vedanta, and Kashmir Shaivism, including an autobiography entitled The Play of Consciousness.
Quix, please help me out here! Please tell me you do not agree with this?!?
little jeremiah, can you help us out here? Is a Kundalini spirit "Chiti" the equal to or equivalent of the Christian Holy Spirit? Is that a proper understanding of Hindu cosmology, or more evidence of failure to discern spirits?
First of all, as I said, demonic influences exist. However, Kundalini is not a demon. More fundamentally, however, you have not evinced any understanding of a spiritual philosophy which could explain such manifestations as vaild (in Sanskrit, such purifications are called "kriyas.")
In the philosophy of Kundalini purification, it is said that the Divine Power enters and drives out the base aspects that have entered the human mind and set up shop. Demonic influences, black magic, animalistic tendencies, all base and depraved behavior, etc. And like any purification process, the more powerful it is, the more dramatic the results - can - be (but not always, since we're talking about God here, who can make anything gentle).
So when you show me videos of people acting horrifically under stated "Kundalini" experiences, and state that such things cannot be valid experiences of the Holy Spirit, I think two things:
1st, there's a lot of fakery and hysteria (and granted, some possession) being shoved out in the world as "Kundalini" and "purification," in which case that's what what we're seeing here - not real Kundalini.
2nd, what do you thing people look like when God is purging their black, animalistic hearts? Many stories exist about people going through all sorts of contortions as in these videos, while dark powers and pollutions are driven from their minds by the Holy Spirit. Denying that process is like damning emergency room doctors forcing a patient to vomit out poison, by looking at the poison and the convulsions and claiming that that's not how real doctors work, real doctors are caring and gentle and kind. Such a judgement is simply ignorance.
So which is it in the video? I don't know - and that's not my point. My point is that Kundalini is a name for the Holy Spirit in the Hindu spiritual tradition for thousands of years, and that there is a sound, rational, understandable purification process that is linked not only to Kundalini, but all manifestations of the Holy Spirit around the world, throughout human history.
So believe what you want, I'm not trying to pick a fight here. But there are possible explanations for these videos that are not demonic, and that do invoke the Holy Spirit. And I am saying that with a very straight face.
Are you a Pentecostal Christian?
Are you a Kashmir Shaivite?
So you are saying this "impartation" of the Toronto Blessing and the manifestations seen in these videos isn't so much a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, but a manifestation of demonic forces leaving the body, as in an exorcism?
That's not how these Pentecostals describe it.
NOW go to God’s Word and see what HE says about prayer. WHO did Jesus pray to?
If you have no desire to follow Christ, don’t bother - continue on with what the pagans say.....
....pray address a deity, a prophet, a saint or an object of worship;.
....To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.
And you’ll reap what the pagans will reap.
I am a Catholic.
I asked a simple question: Are you a Pentecostal Christian?
Because I’m debating you under the assumption that you are a Pentecostal Christian, given the mutual kudos between you and Quix.
I do not desire to misrepresent your beliefs expressed on this thread as representing those of a Pentecostal Christian if you are instead a practicing Hindu or other non-Christian religious.
Wikipedia (yeah, yeah, I know, Wikipedia) says Baba's teaching can be condensed as follows:
Swami Muktananda's teaching can be summarized in two quotations:
* Honor your Self, Worship your Self, Meditate on your Self, God dwells within you as you.
* See God in Each Other.
Called third strike. This is NOT what the Holy Spirit calls Christians to.
As G.K. Chesterton says, "Students of popular science, like Mr. Blatchford, are always insisting that Christianity and Buddhism are very much alike, especially Buddhism."
Seems like you're applying for the franchise rights for Hinduism.
Incidentally, Quix, Brian -- if you're interested, the Wikipedia article also mentions that
"Muktananda described his initiation by Nityananda and his subsequent remarkable experiences with kundalini energy and its manifestation in various chakras or psychic centers of the body, accompanied by strange visions and enhanced consciousness in his book Guru (1971)."
Two points: there's that damned kundalini again.
And also, ...chakras?
Sounds like Al Gore and his crazed sex poodle routine.
Makes me suspicious that all this green environmental stuff...which is tied to Gaia...is underneath tied to Hinduism and seducing spirits. A spiritual pincer movement, between the twin subversion of the Charismatic movement by megachurches/Oprah-ization and secret Hinduism on the one hand, and in the secular realm, the "Goddess Earth"/Environmental movement.
Cheers! Cheers!
In your view, all world religions manifest the Holy Spirit? In Christian thought, this would represent a serious heresy (indifferentism, universalism, etc.)
I can't speak for the Pentecostals : ) And as I said, I don't know if this is the actual Kundalini process in these videos. That's between these people and God.
But what I am saying is that (among other things) Kundalini effects purification which, at fundamental stages, can function as an exorcism (if any evil entity needs to be driven out), but also addresses psychological and moral weaknesses as well, which generally take far longer to deal with.
And real Kundalini always creates genuine spiritual purification. It changes people from pursuing darkness, to living in light. From being attracted to perversions, to being attracted to what is generally referred to as "clean living." And then on to deeper and deeper love for God and God's moral law. Anything, therefore, called "Kundalini" that leads to the spiritual worsening of someone is not Kundalini.
But consider - if the purifying power of God, the Holy Spirit, is One and Only, then while it acts in the same way, other cultures would name it differently. But it's effects would always be spiritual purification, never destruction. Yet free will would likewise never be destroyed. So in every culture there have been "falls from Grace" - but that isn't Grace's fault.
"And you’ll reap what the pagans will reap."
Ok! MR Allmighty?
Agreed. The posts are so stuffed with multiple layers of ignorance, prejudice, bigotry and flat-out lies that it would take a year to unravel them all.
But I will note that the first thing churches scream throughout history when people actually, personally experience the Holy Spirit without their prior approval is "demons!"
Which, of course, always makes it that much easier for real demons to hide behind the status quo - religious or otherwise.
--------------------------------
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
imho, the outrageous rants beginning this thread are evidently a result of embarrassed pique over 1000 Silverlings' very accurate and rational pointing out that Roman Catholic Charismatics don't fit the mold yet have even Papal approval.
Some of the RC's seem to be choking on the facts and their bitterness, resentments, bile, vengeance, retaliation compulsions boiled over. So, of course, they had to rush out and find as much dirt as they could throw at the perceived sources of the problems.
Thankfully, all they've succeeded in doing is displaying rather vividly their rigid biases and gross ignorance of the topic.
THANKFULLY, WE PENTECOSTALS & CHARISMATICS ARE IN GOOD COMPANY . . . .
They accused Pentecostals/Charismatics in Acts 2 of being drunk by 09:00.
Until THE LORD cleanses the earth and HIS CHURCH,
there will be excesses, counterfeits, exaggerations, sins, horrific nonsense, mistakes, misguided earnest efforts etc. all in the name of God.
However, not all seeming nonenses IS such. One of the greatest revivals of the last 150 years [I forget the name--might have been Azusa] . . . the leader was told by the Lord to wear a box on his head at the meetings--which he did. After a few years of constant revival, he decided to take the box off. The revival died shortly thereafter.
We see plenty of excesses, counterfeits, demonized doctrines of demons, ritualized horrific craziness, with all the Mary related idolatry and blasphemy. And that's with calm deliberate folks not even very excited!
We see it in the idolatry of THE RCC INSTITUTION.
And, whenever Holy Spirit is influencing and having HIS WAY with growing numbers of people, satan certainly redoubles his efforts to pollute, tarnish, corrupt, side-track, etc. any such move of Holy Spirit.
However, it's the cliques who cheer on--AS SCRIPTURE DECLARES--THE FORM OF RELIGION, THE FORM OF GODLINESS
WHILE DENYING THE POWER THEREOF
WHO ARE MOST DANGEROUS TO SOULS AND ETERNAL DESTINIES.
People can be brought back into balance.
Deliverance can be effected from demonic influences.
Correct teaching and training can bring more wholeness and fitting expressions.
At least those people are earnestly seeking God at all costs.
At least those people are willing to humble themselves in their desperately intense seeking God's face. They will not be denied. GOD WILL BLESS THEM. And He does.
It's pretty difficult to move lumps in the middle of the road or on a log, who are self-satisfied, self-righteous, idolatrous of their narrow, rigid, fossilized TRADITIONS OF MEN and DOCTRINES OF DEMONS in their worship of Mary and the blasphemies associated therewith.
A lot of these naysayers would likely not recognize a move of God's Holy Spirit if such occurred right in front of their faces. They are too willfully blind. Their spiritual sensors have become dulled, if not seered by so much stubborn refusal to hear and obey The Lord on something as basic as idolatry.
They are dreaming if they think I'm going to bother sorting out stuff they don't demonstrate the least bit of sincerity toward learning about. If any are sincere about learning, I'm sure there are some Roman Catholic Charismatics who are mature and spiritual enough to educate them.
I think the fact is that they merely want to deflect 1000 Silverlings' excellent points that have been hitting too much pay dirt for too many days now.
Thankfully, Holy Spirit WILL NOT BE STOPPED. He WILL HAVE HIS WAY, regardless. Some folks will be pushed aside. Some will learn and grow in The Lord. Others will be crushed under the Word of God because they REFUSED to be BROKEN ON THE WORD OF GOD.
Thanks for your kind and accurate post.
Nice to read a voice of sanity from an RC on the topic.
Thx.
In my view, if it isn't founded upon the Holy Spirit, it isn't a real religion. I don't believe there is more than one Holy Spirit. But I also think that God is infinitely creative, and never leaves a culture abandoned. So the Holy Spirit is where you find it, because the Holy Spirit is free from human limitation. But demonic influences exist as well, and so discrimination is needed.
I feel the same way about people. Everyone talks about their group associations, but I've found that a people's characters vary widely within any given organization - even religions, East or West. The group is not the person - and the group doesn't get the person off of responsibility for their own life.
So . . .
Did Holy Spirit ask something of you that you’ve been rebelling against and running from ever since?
OK, you’re not Pentecostal. Thanks.
Could you please answer a very simple, straightforward question?
Are you a Christian?
I do not recall ever having debated with you, and it makes a difference in how I interpret and respond to your posts.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.