Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
In Christ Alone lyrics
Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;
In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save
?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live
There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ
The Catholic church has never interpreted the entire word of God. Their doctrine is built on proof texts
I suspect that is because the church is not able to interpret the word of God and hold onto the doctrine they have proof texted ...
That is interesting
Mary having sex or having other children a straw man that distracts from what is important ...Christ, and the gospel ...
I am sure because I believe in the teaching of the Church and the Church is sure. What I would admit is that the scripture makes the false notion of other children possible if it is interpreted in a certain false way. This is a good illuistration why we do not have the Bible as a sole rule of faith.
I doubt that I accused you personally of lying. I do say that Protestantism is a systematic lie about the Gospel, chiefly because of the way Protestantism spins it away from the Catholic truths of salvation being by grace alone through faith and works, the sacraments being ordinarily necessary for salvation and that the Church has the rule of faith. But I would not say that every Protestant lies all the time, especially one bamboozled since childhood by his pastors. If you show me where I accused you personally of lying -- that is saying something you know to be false in ordder to deceive -- show it to me and I will apologize.
And you know this how?
Because the Church retasined the memory of it. Religion is not a police station: documentation is not our first thought, it sure wasn't in the 1c wehn most people could not read or write.
If this is so critically important, why didn't the Catholic church do a better job of writing the Bible (as Catholics claim) and clear that up? Why say *brothers* and *sisters* instead of *cousins* and leave people in confusion?
Because the inspired author wanted to be precise. To say "cousins" when the group of people consistent of cousins, half-brothers, step-brothers, adopted children and playmates woudl be imprecise. To call such group collectively "brothers" is precisely how one is to describe it.
whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother
This is another demonstration how broad the word "brother" is used in the ancient texts.
Then why the need for confession? Why the uncertainty of where you (pl) end up when you (pl) die?
Confession gives certainty. I know that if I do what the Church asks of me I will go to Heaven. That is the promise of Christ. What we are nto certain of is our own will, which is weak. Now, therefore we need confession in order to reconnect to the communion of saints and regain strength.
That we have the sacraments that purify us, and you Protestants walked away from that gift that Christ gave you -- is not strength obtained by our own doing. The sacraments are the result of grace and not of our works.
Yes, if you take the word "sister" literally, you may end up with that absurdity as well.
Now the church is a first hand witness when they weren't even around
We know the Church was around because St. Luke evidently had knowledge of Mary's annunciation and the events that followed that no one could witness at the time. It is logical to assume that he, too, got the knowledge of Mary having no other children from Mary herself late in her life. We don't' know for sure how this knowledge was transmittred to the Church as a whole, but we know it.
The attempt at irony at the end of your post is not something I will comment upon. If you can make it in declarative sentences or as a question I will either comment or answer, but I am not going to clown around with you -- I don't have time.
Quite right. Unfortunately, taking the opposite side of the argument, as Rome does, leads to plenty of mischief too.
Maybe the reformers were even wiser than we think.
annalex wrote:
“What I would admit is that the scripture makes the false notion of other children possible if it is interpreted in a certain false way.”
What a great example of mischief!
annalex, you are priceless!
annalex wrote:
“I do say that Protestantism is a systematic lie about the Gospel, chiefly because of the way Protestantism spins it away from the Catholic truths of salvation being by grace alone through faith and works ...”
You know that children’s game where one tells something to the person sitting next to him, and then the next to the next and so on, until the “story” returns to the original teller ... who often doesn’t recognize what it is he has just heard even though it is supposed to be what he first said. The game is used, of course, to teach children how untruths get spread even when we don’t really even intend to do so.
Here’s how it works: The Apostle Paul proclaims (into the ear of the first pope), “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:8-10) Each subsequent pope does the same to the next. In the early stages of this very long game a piece of paper is passed from hand to hand as well so each can check what he hears against what is written on the piece of paper. Somewhere along the line, one pope, confident of his ability to remember and repeat accurately, sticks the piece of paper in his pocket and leaves it there. Finally, many popes down the line some unimportant fellow finds the piece of paper that was accidently pulled out of a pocket and fell to the floor. He hands it to the pope who is next in line to pass the story on. By now the story is quite different than what is written on the piece of paper. But surely, surely, so many popes cannot be wrong! No, the paper must be corrected according to the memory of the popes. Finally, the story comes out these many years later, and is spoken in the hearing of annalex: “salvation is by grace alone through faith and works.”
Of course, the statement didn’t really originate with Paul, so he will be spared hearing it retold to him and not recognizing it. The statement originated with God, who when it is spoken into His ear is not going to recognize it ... what a day that will be. Somehow, I don’t think all the children will be laughing at the end of the game. No, I suspect their mouths will be stopped.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
I think I will trust in Christ and the work he did
Such arrogance is beyond description..."He that thinks he stands take heed least he fall".
That we have the sacraments that purify us, and you Protestants walked away from that gift that Christ gave you -- is not strength obtained by our own doing. The sacraments are the result of grace and not of our works.
Here is a text book example of what the word Grace means to a RC, the definition of which is totally different to protestant understanding.
Grace, to a protestant is God's unmerited favor. That is, grace is God doing good for us that we do not deserve. In the Bible, grace and mercy are like two heads of the same coin. Mercy is God withholding judgment or evil that I deserve; grace is God giving me blessing or good that I do not deserve. Because of God's mercy, I do not receive the judgment of God against my sins; because of God's grace, I receive eternal life and a promise of heaven though I do not deserve them. Both mercy and grace come to me though the Lord Jesus Christ.
For the RC, "grace" is a primarily spiritual substance recieved in chunks via the sacraments. This spiritual substance temporarily empowers you to perform the good works necessary to attain your own justification not Christ's Righteousness. This chunk of grace has a short shelf life and must be replenished frequently by repetative ceremony performed only by a priest.
Thank you...
You’re quite welcome.
Thanks for your kind reply.
I didn’t figure I was alone on that. LOL.
Catholic truths of salvation being by grace alone through faith and works,
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Not much more needs to be said...You condemn yourself and your Catholic religion without any help from us...
Let the Lurkers behold...
I think you’re beating a dead horse....the context of Matt. 12:46-50 and Luke 8:19-21 shows how the word “brother” is being used, as sharing a parent.
“But I would not say that every Protestant lies all the time, especially one bamboozled since childhood by his pastors.”
I’m sure every Protestant will cherish this generous concession. Especially “one”.
Good job....
annalex, you are priceless!
Oh yea! that's a keeper.
A straight read of the verses indicate a matter of fact indifference in mentioning the siblings of Jesus by name. There is no attempt by the Gospel writers to explain what they meant by brothers and sisters of Jesus. This seems to indicate two things, no other explanation was needed (Jesus had brothers and sisters), AND certainly no theological meaning either way.
The Gospel writers certainly did not go out of their way to imply perpetual virginity!
Again, perpetual virginity serves NO purpose and even if TRUE, was apparently irrelevant to the writers of the New Testament.
The only purpose I see is to maintain Mary's demi goddess status and support the "Queen of Heaven" and "Co-Redemptrix" titles, Moving the focus from Jesus.
Rejoice that you haven't been subjected to this translation during worship. It is painfully 'hip'. My pastor frequently uses it for his text.
annalex wrote:
“That we have the sacraments that purify us, and you Protestants walked away from that gift that Christ gave you — is not strength obtained by our own doing. The sacraments are the result of grace and not of our works.”
What a tangled web.
I responded to an earlier post that Martin Luther had more problems with the Roman Church than just justification by grace through faith. The above quotation illustrates some of those other problems, which are often not distinguished one from the other when one tries to put his finger on what is wrong with Roman teaching about salvation.
A very simple way to outline this is the following:
1) Salvation won for us: Jesus alone is the Savior. That is why He is called Jesus. That is why He is recognized as the Savior of the world. That is why He alone is the way, the truth, and the life, without whom no one has access to the Father. The salvation He obtained for us is complete. His words at Calvary, “It is finished,” must be understood this way so as to agree with all the rest of the Holy Scriptures of both the OT and the NT. Salvation, complete and full, was won on the cross of Calvary by Christ alone. In this Rome errs. Nothing needs to be added to the salvation Christ won for all. In fact, nothing can be added to it. Christ, and Christ alone, is the Savior.
2) Salvation given to us: Nothing of what was said above is changed. However, it must be realized that Christ won our salvation there (at Calvary) and then (nearly 2000 years ago). How does what He did there and then get to us here and now. This where the preaching of the Gospel and the Sacraments come in to play. It is Christ who commanded that His Gospel be proclaimed to the world, that is to say, the proclamation that all sins are forgiven for the sake of His bitter suffering and death, His substitutionary atoning sacrifice for us. It is Christ who commanded both baptism and the Lord’s Supper for those who would be His. Through these, that is, the Gospel and Sacraments, as through means, the salvation that Christ won then and there for the whole world is conveyed to us here and now. It is not a partial salvation that is conveyed, it is not a quantity of something that is handed out in bits and pieces. It is salvation full and free. In this also, Rome errs, for she does not understand grace rightly, and does not accept that Jesus has done all.
3) Salvation received by us: Nothing that was said above is changed. However, the salvation Christ won for us then and there, that is given to us here and now through Word and Sacrament, must be received. The means of receiving it is faith, faith pure and simple. Faith grasps the gift, the completed salvation of Christ given to us in Word and Sacrament. Such faith is, as Paul famously and so memorably said, “the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9) The One who creates faith in the cold, dead heart of sinful man, which is a miracle as great as God creating heaven and earth out of nothing as Martin Luther wrote, is the Holy Spirit. In this also Rome errs, thinking each person must add to faith works, not grasping that it is the Holy Spirit works through the Gospel in Word and Sacrament to bring faith into our hearts, which faith makes us alive to God, alive instead of spiritually dead. It is this living faith in the heart of the now grateful child of God that desires to do want God wants, not what we want, in other words, truly good works. These works are truly good because there are not needed by the believer - his salvation is complete in Christ! - and are freely given away to our neighbor, whom the Father in heaven desires to bless through us, who are His workmanship, created for such good works.
So, what we have is salvation 1) won, 2) given, and 3) received. All are well supported in the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. None is in conflict or competition with the other. This is the fuller meaning of the reformation saying that we are justified by 2) grace through 3) faith for 1) Jesus’ sake. What Roman Catholics seem unable to believe is that which God says and promises, that true, heaven-sent faith will produce good works (good tree leads to good fruit).
Faith that produces no such fruit, is not true faith. This is the warning of James. But the warning in no way overturns the truth regarding salvation won, given, or received. It simply gives us Christians cause to examine ourselves, as Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 11 and other places) urges many times.
Why do we still have trouble after coming to faith? Because we remain in the world, which tells us sin is not sin, and holds forth every sort of reward that would draw us away from Christ. Also, we still have our sinful flesh wrapped around our now living, believing heart. It too desires to do what we know is wrong, and not do that which we know to be right. And, finally, the devil still walks about as a ravenous wolf, seeking whom he may deceive and devour. The only antidote to these three bitter and enduring enemies is the continued assurance of the Gospel in Word and Sacrament which imprints the crucified Christ on our heart, marking us as His, and reminds us that “it is finished,” thus strengthening our trust in Him who loved us and gave Himself for us.
This is a simple way to understand what the Bible teaches us about salvation. It is pure Martin Luther; and it is the reason he is so hated by pope and magisterium. What is more, it is pure Scriptural truth, and thus irrefutable, whether pope and magisterium think so or not.
SOLA GRATIA
SOLA FIDE
SOLA SCRIPTURA
SOLUS CHRISTUS
SOLI DEO GLORIA!
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