Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
In Christ Alone lyrics
Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;
In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save
?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live
There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ
“the logic is inescapable”
Yes, but...being logical isn’t the game plan for many on this thread who have prejudices against the Catholic Church. And that’s my logical conclusion, based on the content of their posts that are offered here.
Thanks for your clearly written, logically presented post.
Probably depends on the speed of your digestive tract.
Mark: No anger. Just rejection that one can Judge one's self. That is unScriptural and unChristian. Those who believe it are not acting in a Christian manner.
But aren't we all commanded to judge ourselves for fitness and standing before God before we partake of the Lord's Supper/Eucharist? How can a Catholic partake if he judges himself as anything other than presumptively saved?
Luther was not infallible in that much of what he taught, the hatred of the Jews for example, was errant. If not, then is not hatred of the Jews embodied in Protestant dogma and why do you choose to some of what Luther taught such as the real presence and the perpetual virginity of Mary?
ph
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207bt.asp has some wisdom on this front:
In the wake of 9/11 it has become more important than ever that Catholics have an accurate view of Islam. A starting point, though not the ending point, is reading what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say. It states, "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day" (CCC 841).
To understand this, one both has to look at the original context of the quote. The Catechism is not a freshly drafted document. It is in large measure a synthesis of other documents, and one has to look up quotations in the original sources to understand them fully. This is the case for the Catechism’s statement about Muslims, which is taken wholly from Vatican II.
Many find the first part of the quote perplexing: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims." To many this sounds like Muslims can be saved by adhering to Islam. That isn’t what it means, as shown by the original context.
If you look at Lumen Gentium (LG), the Vatican II document from which the quote is drawn, it becomes clear that the phrase is not meant to say that Islam is a method of salvation parallel to Christianity. The quote comes from LG 16, but it is part of a larger context in the document. To appreciate how it fits into the picture, one needs to go back at least as far as LG 13, which starts by proclaiming, "All men are called to belong to the new people of God"—i.e., to the Church. Section 13 concludes by stating, "All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God. . . . And in different ways to it belong, or are related: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation."
All mankind is called to the "Catholic unity of the people of God"—in other words, to become Catholics. Some have done so, and so LG states that some "belong to" the Catholic Church while others are related to it "in different ways." Those who belong to it are "the Catholic faithful," while those who are related in various ways include "others who believe in Christ" (who are related to the Church in one way) and "all mankind" (who are related to the Church in a different way).
.............
It means that God desires their salvation and has made plans for their salvation—plans that include giving them graces that lead in the direction of salvation and the Church. But that doesn’t mean that they can be saved by being nothing more than non-Jewish theists.
Within the category of non-Jewish theists, Muslims today hold the first place in that they are the largest such group and have a number of commonalities with Judaism and Christianity, several of which the council goes on to note:
(1) They "profess to hold the faith of Abraham." The operative word here is "profess"—they claim to hold the faith of Abraham. In reality, their faith is an imperfect version of the faith that comes from Abraham, but they are trying to follow in the footsteps of Abraham, and the Council gives them credit for that.
(2) "Together with us they adore the one, merciful God." For many, this statement is perplexing. However, as we saw in last issue’s "Brass Tacks" column, God is aware of and acknowledges all that is good and true in the worship offered to him, however imperfect an understanding of him a worshiper may have. While Muslims, like Jews, do not accept the Trinity, they do acknowledge that God is the only true God and that he is merciful. This means that they honor things that are true about God but have a limited understanding of him.
Christians have a fuller understanding of God because he has revealed more to us about himself: specifically, that he is a Trinity. This doctrine cannot be deduced by human reason; it can only be known by revelation.
Failure to accept this revelation of the Christian age does not stop Muslims from worshiping God any more than it stops Jews. It means only that they know less about God and that they have erroneous corollary ideas (for instance, that Jesus is not the Son of God).
To make clear how this works, allow me to take an example from pop culture: Suppose that you and I both knew millionaire Bruce Wayne. I might know, because he revealed it to me, that he is also Batman. You may hear this claim and reject it, in which case you adopt the false corollary belief "Batman is not Bruce Wayne." That does not mean that you don’t know and relate to either Bruce or Batman, it means only that you misunderstand the relationship between them.
In the same way, one may worship God and honor Jesus as a prophet (which he was) without understanding that Jesus is God. Indeed, many people in his own day did that: They knew the historical Jesus but had a false understanding of his identity.
(3) Muslims recognize that God is "mankind’s judge on the last day." This is another link they have to biblical faith. Muslims may have erroneous ideas about some of the things that will occur before, after, or around this event, but that much they have right.
Additional elements of truth that Muslims have are listed in another conciliar document (Nostra Aetate 3), but in no place does the Council indicate that Islam—or Judaism or any non-Christian religion—is a path of salvation. There may be elements of truth in these religions, and God may give his grace to whomever he wants, non-Christian religions aren’t vehicles of salvation.
And the same thing goes for religions which profess to be Christian, but aren't - they may use the same words, but do not mean them to be the same as Christianity.
I didn’t say he was infallible - that’s the catholic mantra/mindset. Was Moses, Abraham, etc. infallible? No! Did they and others do a mighty work for the Lord? Yes! The work that they were called to do/their destiny.
God used him for His purpose and he fulfilled that purpose. That’s why Catholics are here - to trash that purpose because we see the obvious result of it . And there is no doubt - the difference between His Church and the RCC. Well done, Luther!
It’s already done - the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church. However few - is not the point - it’s the purity of His Church and that’s without traditions that oppose/nullify His Word.
Not classy and not funny.
Show me the post.
Your last post was 4635. By your own admission you are a failed Catholic and have rejected the teachings of Christ in favour of those of your own choosing.
And when one sins again, all those sins remove one's self from God again. Your sinful works separate yourself from God. No salvation until further repentence for those very sinful works.
Lost one day, saved the next, then lost again, then saved again, lost, saved, lost, saved, lost, saved, lost, saved,........Minute by minute, hour by hour. All you can do is hope to hit the jackpot and die at a time you're in *saved* mode.
If you have nothing to repent for, then you do not need to repent. Sins cannot be forgiven if you do not repent of them. You may call it jackpot. The Apostles and followers of Jesus call it Christianity. Christianity teaches that there is no get out of hell free card. Christianity teaches that there is a Judgement of each individual according to his deeds. Christ does not honour a man made get of hell free card, regardless of who manufactured it.
“Satan uses tactics”.
Yes, he does.
I do believe that there are some posters here who have a “notch-on-my-gun” attitude.
I have perceived that attitude by the nature of their posts.
These same people like to call to mind that we are known by our fruits.
It often comes across as a sort of nouveau phariseeism.
Interesting. You see the Pope being charitable to our enemies, the Muslims and you roundly castigate him. You see me being brutally direct about the non Christianity of those who call themselves Christians and are not, and you castigate me. Being charitable to non Christians, and at the same time being brutally honest with non Christians is not acceptable to you guys. Nothing is acceptable except for the acceptance by all of you the individual.
Tough.
Thank you for reminding me of why I left the Catholic church and never looked back.
Yes, life is so much easier when you can pick and choose what to believe and not believe, and have no repercussions or responsibilities for your beliefs and actions. You guys must sleep like babies every night tucked into your Reformational security blankets.
I don't believe this at all. Can you list them and we can have a whole thread on what exactly are the essential scriptures? What are the essential scriptures that are held by all Protestants? I await your pleasure...
Show us where hatred of Jews is embodied in Protestant *dogma*. If you're going to throw out false accusations and lie about what Protestants believe, at least try to defend yourself by providing sources for them.
Besides, since when do Catholics think that Protestants have dogma? You guys are always accusing us of being all over the map doctrinally. You know *every man his own pope* and *30,000 denominations* and *YOPIOS*? How can we have dogma and not at the same time. Explain that as well, while you're at it.
In case you hadn’t noticed, not only do these verses not apply to Pope John Paul II, but he was hated by non Christians, including various televangelists here, by the Rev. Ian Paisley, by the Muslims, by the popular press, and by most of the non Christians that practice sham Christianity right here. Thank you for making my point for me with your post.
A good question, sir. We are instructed to judge ourselves according to the teachings of the Church as to the partaking of the Eucharist, but in no way is Christ beholden to us and our judgement of ourselves. We strive, in our imitation of Christ, to be Christian. That is, or should be, continuously judged based again, upon the teachings of the Church.
So it is ultimately up to you to decide which of Luther's teachings were divinely inspired and which were horse hockey? Unless you rely on some "expert advice" I guess that puts the cloak of infallibility on you making you your own pope and magisterium. Are you up to the task? What makes you more qualified than me or anyone else to be able to separate the fly poop from the pepper?
Salvation by Grace
The Resurrection of Christ
The Gospel
Jesus is the only way to salvation
Jesus' Virgin Birth
The Trinity
The Authority of Scripture
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