In Christ Alone (Happy reformation day)

I went back and looked. There was no answer.

Really? In that case I will answer again.

Would you bow down and kiss the koran to appease a muslim?

Nope. I don't appease. You should know that from my posts.

It’s a simple question. There’s hardly a way to weasel out of answering just *yes* or *no*.

Only for simple people.

I see Catholics don’t like Isaiah and the don’t like Paul

You guys are not listening. We venerate Paul.

So maybe then you will listen to this ?

Comprehension problem here. I'll say it slowly. We do not worship Allah. We only worship the Lord God Almighty, unlike the children of the Reformation who worship what they find in their navels, or scrape out from under their toenails. Depending on the day, of course.

I have no comprehension problem.
I see the Pope kiss an idol book instead of saying no this book is not right the Gospel is right .

You do no favors to a person worshiping a beast by telling them they worship the same God of the Bible.

"Is the Catholic church wrong in what the Catechism states?"

No, you are wrong in pretending to understand what the Church teaches and demanding that all Catholics accept your flawed interpretations.

You could not bend the Church's teachings to your will while still a Catholic and you will fail to do so from the outside. It is obvious to all that you failed as a Catholic because you did not understand the Catechism. Now stop projecting that on to the billion plus Catholics who do not believe as you do.

Since you at your word do not believe in the God of Christiantiy, indeed you have left that belief, why should I believe that you are saved?

Show me the post.

And when one sins again, all those sins remove one's self from God again. Your sinful works separate yourself from God. No salvation until further repentence for those very sinful works.

Lost one day, saved the next, then lost again, then saved again, lost, saved, lost, saved, lost, saved, lost, saved,........Minute by minute, hour by hour. All you can do is hope to hit the jackpot and die at a time you're in *saved* mode.

But if you forgot to confess something, too bad for you....

Women serving in some capacity is known in temple Judaism as is young women being dedicated to God.
Exodus 38:8, as well as 1 Samuel 2:22 mention "the women that waited at the door of the tabernacle".
The daughter of Jephte the Galaadite was dedicated to God ina virgin state unwittingly by her father, and that created a certain custom mentioned in Judges 11:39.
Luke 2:36 says that Prophetess Anna "departed not from the temple".
Philo of Alexandria in On the Contemplative Life describes an apparent Jewish Hellenized practice of chastity observed by men and women:

I don't quite get what you are trying to expound upon here. My statement stands that there were no dedicated "temple virgins" who took life-long vows of celibacy.

In your first example of "women who waited at the door of the tabernacle", it wasn't exactly women held in high esteem, if you get my drift. In fact, Eli, the priest of the tabernacle, had some unbelieving sons who, needless to say, were quite a disappointment to him. In II Samuel 2:22 we read, "Now Eli was very old, and heard all that his sons did unto all Israel; and how they lay with the women that assembled [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.", this tells me that they were hanging out at the outside of the door to the tabernacle waiting for whatever 'business' they could drum up, in other words, they were NOT doing anything that should be admired or emulated today. In Exodus 38:8, there is a description of items placed at the entrance to the tabernacle for the women who assembled at the door (a wash basin and a mirror), but I don't see any references of what their role was other than maybe just waiting there for their men to exit?

In the Judges story of Jephthah the Gileadite is a sad one. He had been thrown out of his father's house by his half-brothers because his mother was a prostitute. When the Israelites got into trouble with the neighbors later on, the people called upon him to lead them into battle. He had felt the presence of the Lord and his calling to lead the Israelites. He, like Gideon, wanted some kind of sign from the Lord that he would be sure of victory so he rashly made a vow that whoever came out his door to greet him after the victorious battle, he would offer up to the Lord. He never expected it would be his only child, a daughter, who had not been married yet (a virgin). He really found out how silly rash vows are but he fulfilled his promise anyway. He told his daughter what he had done and she accepted it. She asked for two months to travel with her friends to "bewail her virginity" which she did and then returned home. The Scripture says he did with her what he had promised though it did not go into detail about where he killed her, but he promised a burnt offering so that is what he did. The "custom" you are referring to is "That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year." (Judges 11:40)

Your next example about Anna, the Prophetess, is found in Luke 2:36-38 - "There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying. Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem." So she was not a virgin, but a widow, who was obviously quite devoted to worship. This does still not confirm any form of a ritual celibate virgin who served in the Temple.

And, lastly, the Philo of Alexandria story was speaking about the Essenes. They were a small Jewish group that existed from around the second century B.C. to around the first century A.D. who congregated in communal life dedicated to asceticism, voluntary poverty, daily baptisms, and abstinence from worldly pleasures, including marriage. I don't think any scholar would even begin to equate them with the general practices of the Jewish people. With their ideas, it's easy to see why they died out.

So if you can come up with some more examples, I don't see any proof for the idea that Mary was some sort of "Temple virgin".

We only worship the Lord God Almighty, unlike the children of the Reformation who worship what they find in their navels, or scrape out from under their toenails. Depending on the day, of course.

What a sweetheart. What a shining example of Catholic charity.

Thank you for reminding me of why I left the Catholic church and never looked back.

Now stop projecting that on to the billion plus Catholics who do not believe as you do.

Are you telling me that all one billion plus Catholics believe in the false doctrine of soul annihilation like you do? And you know this how? Did you ask every one of them personally?

What about the rest of the Catholics here? Do you all believe in soul annihilation as NL says is Catholic teaching? That the unsaved soul ceases to exist instead of suffering eternal torment as the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic church teach?

What about the rest of the former Catholics?

You know, NL, this would be news to Jesus who said,......

Mark 9:42-48 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

Luke 16:22-24 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

Matthew 13:36- 43 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field." He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom.The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:47-50 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad. So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Since when do large numbers of followers to any faith make it the true faith? Jesus began with 12 â€œappointedâ€ men. Gideons army ended up with very few from that he started with..by God choosing. Power and truth are not in the numbers for God knows men’s hearts that they will take the glory for their own efforts....being â€œsmallâ€ before God is mightier than the greatest foe. For it is by and thru Him that truth and victory prevail. Be it large numbers or small...but arrogance among any number simply shows that God likely isn’t to be very powerful among them...they have determined their power lays within themselves and their organization...tacking a prayer or adoration’s on top just sweetens their own pie.

Excellant Boatbums....great to see this with the clarity you gave it.

"Are you telling me that all one billion plus Catholics believe in the false doctrine of soul annihilation like you do?"

Whether intentional or as a product of your own ignorance you misconstrue the teachings Please stop distorting what the Church teaches. It is obvious from your postings that you take the same liberties with the Catechism as you do with Scripture. I am only telling you what the Church teaches. I do not expect you to comprehend or accept it, I just expect you to stop posting authoritatively on a subject that you demonstrably have no knowledge of.

CCC 403 - Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul.

CCC - 1056 Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the "sad and lamentable reality of eternal death", also called "hell."

CCC - 1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.

CCC - 1874 To choose deliberately - that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.

Forest Keeper wrote:
“ I can’t remember ever having a conversation with a Lutheran concerning this before on FR. May I assume this is the first?”

That would be an affirmative.

FK also wrote:
“If so, then would that make you Sola Scriptura but not Sola Fide? How do you stand on the other Solas?”

Sola Gratia
Sola Fide
Sola Scriptura
Solus Christus ... and because of them Soli Deo Gloria

FK also wrote:
“This appears to say that true salvation can be held, and then lost through rejection.”

Correct. Hence the many admonitions in OT and NT to repent, hold fast, believe, endure correction, etc. etc.

FK also wrote:
“If correct so far, then presumably salvation could be won back again through some means.”

Yes, that is what repentance is all about. We continue to sin as believers, even though against our regenerated will (”the good that I would I do not, and the evil that I would not, that I do”), for the old nature (old Adam, old man) is not finally destroyed until our own death. When throughout our lives we are again (and again and again) found wanting by God’s law, we repent, throwing ourselves on His mercy, which He has promised to us for the sake of the bitter suffering and death of His Son.

FK also wrote:
“If that was done then what would replace the adult baptism and what it represents (since it looks like you believe in only one baptism)?”

Nothing replaces it. Baptism is more than representation, much more. It is something done at the command and promise of God. It is His doing, His calling us His own, forgiving us and promising us His eternal kingdom. It is His gift to us. When through life we sin, it is not baptism that goes wrong, it is we who go wrong, sinning, doubting. To live your baptism is to live a life of daily repentance and faith, recognizing that God’s law condemns us, but that Christ has paid that full penalty of the law and, so, we are no longer under the condemnation of the law. Baptism is God’s gift to us. It needs no repeating. We need only believe that He who claimed us as His own is faithful in His mercy. To live one’s baptism is to live not under the law, but under grace. This is why Christ commanded His apostles to remit sins in His stead, that the baptized and repentant might be assured that while their faithfulness lapsed, God’s did not. Lutherans come to the divine service on Sundays (and other times) not because they are good, but because they aren’t. They come seeking mercy, forgiveness, renewal, and strength to go forth once more and sin no more. But without God’s continual faithfulness and mercy for the sake of His beloved Son, the Crucified and Risen, we are lost.

And finally, yes, the “no one” means no power on earth can or will tear away from God the one who believes in the Savior Jesus Christ. Only unbelief can do that, only unbelief damns. It is, of course, the only unforgivable sin, the sin against the Holy Spirit. To die in unbelief is to die separated from God forever.

So, that is the short, quick answer to your questions.

Now it is late. So, good night and God bless.

protestants are separated from each other on interpretations of Scripture and how to practice faith.

Protestants hold all ESSENTIAL scriptures as one.. that is a belief that scripture holds ALL that is necessary for salvation, on non essentials, like mode or type or timing of baptism we may differ, but we agree it is not essential for salvation..

True “Faith alone” would mean protestants would be united in the fullness of the faith.

We do not believe that we are saved by faith in FAITH.. we believe we are saved by CHRIST ...by grace THROUGH faith...not a church, or a doctrine, or sacraments , or works .when one has faith in Christ HE is the fulfillment of that faith.. or the fullness of faith

Basically ,protestants are always searching for meanings of Scripture in many cases,which is all well in good

So glad to have a catholics permission to seek Christ in His word

because at least you’re on a quest for truth,but unfortunately many end up falling into very bad heresies and end up misleading others in repeating some of the same heresies that Irenaues and others dealt with.

I do not know how catholics, that are basically biblically illiterate, are in any position to measure the truth on this . I will note again the Catholic magisterium.. has NEVER written a complete commentary of the scriptures....I suspect it is because they know that to do that would blow their false doctrine out of the water ..

Having a concrete(dogmatic) faith with Sacraments and 2000 plus years of consistency to back up this teaching up is a united faith.

LOL , I am sorry but there is no consistency , as the popes recent change on condoms shows..

Dear Brother,I have often though that you could be someone who could convert to orthodox/catholic because you don’t seem closed minded in protestantism alone.

I do not know how Forest Keeper feels about it, but I do not think you are his brother or the brother of any of the saved protestants here.. the term brother and sister are terms we tie to our faith and being brothers and sisters IN CHRIST .

I really wish that some protestants would really take the time to read the Church fathers other than “Blessed Augustine alone” because I truly believe it would help you at least understand authentic historical faith was not many different beliefs.

The "church fathers" often did not agree with each other, were often heretical in some of their thinking and , unlike the word of God were not infallible.

Some of us wish that catholics would spend as much time in the study of Gods infallible word as the do in the writings of fallible men

I will pray for you at Adoration today

If we are correct and Catholics misread the last passover.. the adoration you attend is adoration of a false god and idol.. it is blasphemy to God

And regarding the fasting parameters prior to communion, we were taught, no it was pounded into our heads, that to disobey this mandate/commandment was a mortal sin worthy of hell that must be confessed and properly penanced. So don't tell me it was a simple, little, inconsequential church custom or personal discipline. The specific requirements of the fast have definitely changed over time. Prior to 1964, the Eucharistic fast began at midnight. Pope Paul VI, on Nov. 21, 1964, reduced the fast to a period of one hour. According to my Mom, a devout Roman Catholic, the fast is optional...ooops, I better let her know she's committing a mortal sin without even knowing it! There is even disagreement whether it is one hour before Mass starts or before you actually receive communion. Yeah...it sure sounds like that is a clear teaching all right. A lesson I remember from a nun at school was the adage, "Clean off your own doorstep before you try to clean off someone else's.". That was good advice then and still is.

Ask how long the "host" is Jesus" that is always good for a discussion.. when does He leave?

So Pope John Paul II is in hell? Not only do you guys usurp the Judgement of Christ upon yourselves, for yourselves, but for others as well? What do you need God for? The LDS is the place for you, where you can become gods of your very own universe, unhindered by any other being.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jhn 15:18 ¶ If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.

Jhn 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world therefore the world hateth you.

Jhn 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Jhn 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Jhn 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

2Cr 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?

The darkness hates the light, they hate Christ, they hate His gospel and anyone that holds it..

John Paul was beloved by the world, because the darkness loves its own .

And who said that repentance is not NECESSARY for salvation?

If logic is not absolute, then logic cannot be used to prove or disprove anything.

Sure it can; it can be used to prove or disprove that which is within our capacity to know. We can't prove gravity logically, because we don't know what causes it; if we did, then it would "make sense." Logic can't "disprove" gravity because it seems illogical to our "conceptual reality." Gravity exists and logic can only explain it but not disprove it. The physical world always wins.

The laws of logic are conceptual realities. They do not extend into space. They only exist in the mind, and they do not describe physical matter, energy, and motion

Knowledge of the real, material, physical, world is absolutely necessary for logic to exist. Without knowing the material world we live in we could not use logic because we would have no concept of anything. Everything we know is learned form the real-world experience, including the language we need to logically deduce anything.

Logic does not exist as some Platonic cosmic entity. It is a product of human experience and udnerstandg of the real world, or an imaginary world based on the experience of the real world.

I do not know how [Roman] Catholics, that are basically biblically illiterate, are in any position to measure the truth on this . I will note again the [Roman] Catholic magisteri[cal] has NEVER written a complete commentary of the scriptures....I suspect it is because they know that to do that would blow their false doctrine out of the water ..

Having a concrete(dogmatic) faith with Sacraments and 2000 plus years of consistency to back up this teaching up is a united faith.

[which being interpreted into unmangled reality NOT from the Vatican Alice In Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling =
.
Having a fossilized (pseudo-pretend dogmatic, convoluted, stinking pile of intellectualized historical absurdities, anti-Biblical absurdities and irrational absurdities pretending to be faith with ritualized idolatries and blasphemies plastered with the untruth in advertising: "Sacraments," and 1600 years of existence and outrageous INCONSISTENCIES; lies, distortions, immoralities, mass murders, whip-lash idological changes; to make an intensely farcical collection of hideous rubbish then foisted on sheeple in the pews with a horrific multiplicity of different framings, assertions, practices, pontifications, further lies, further idolatrous, blasphemous rituals and further affronts to God and Scripture . . . vainly and arrogantly pretending to be in the same galaxy as consistency and outrageously pretending to have something to do with faith) and God in spite of all the contrary evidence . . . ]

LOL , I am sorry but there is no consistency , as the popes recent change on condoms shows..

Dear Brother,I have often though that you could be someone who could convert to orthodox/[Roman] Catholic because you don’t seem closed minded in protestantism alone.

I do not know how Forest Keeper feels about it, but I do not think you are his brother or the brother of any of the saved protestants here.. the term brother and sister are terms we tie to our faith and being brothers and sisters IN CHRIST .

I really wish that some protestants would really take the time to read the Church fathers other than “Blessed Augustine alone” because I truly believe it would help you at least understand authentic historical faith was not many different beliefs.

The "church fathers" often did not agree with each other, were often heretical in some of their thinking and , unlike the word of God were not infallible.

Some of us wish that [Roman] Catholics would spend as much time in the study of Gods infallible word as the do in the writings of fallible men. [Besides which, the RC's slice and dice & fantasize about the early Christian writers as much as they slice and dice and fantasize about God's own Word--creating great skyscrapers of dogma founded on the smoke from the burning of splinters of toothpics of Scripture.]

I will pray for you at Adoration today

If we are correct and [Roman] Catholics misread the last passover.. the adoration you attend is adoration of a false god and idol.. it is blasphemy to God

Was the Bible that Luther received inerrant (without error)? If no, then Luther's doctrine of "The Bible Alone" is self-refuting.

Not so because the writers of the Bible never instructed men to add tradition to Scripture.

So you are saying that the Bible that Luther inherited didn't contain errors?

If yes, then you have two logical problems that are fatal to Luther's theory of "the Bible alone."

First, Luther declared several Old Testament books to be non-canonical. Did "the Bible alone" tell him to remove several books from itself? Or did Luther consider himself to be an authority greater than the Bible alone? For Luther's Bible to be inerrant, he would have had to have acted infallibly in determining the canon of Scripture.

(Interestingly, R.C. Sproul recognizes this problem, and has declared the Bible to be "a fallible collection of infallible books." Or something.)

So rather than the Church of Christ acting infallibly in determining the canon of Scripture, Luther must have acted infallibly in determining the canon of Scripture, if Luther's canon of Scripture is to be considered inerrant. And if Luther held the rest of the Bible to be inerrant, he would have had to have argued that the Church that wrote and preserved Scripture up until his time had acted infallibly until his day.

How could Luther rashly reject the authority of the Church that had written, preserved, and canonized Scripture up until his time, unless he considered his teaching authority to be superior to the Church and Scripture?

Secondly, if the Bible that Luther inherited didn't contain errors, then the earthly source that he received it from acted infallibly in writing, preserving and canonizing it. And since this process occurred over many centuries, this earthly source acted infallibly over the course of many centuries.

What could this earthly source be except Christ's Church?

If you put aside Luther's novel teaching of "the Bible alone" and look at the argument objectively, you will see that the logic is inescapable. It's a simple, insurmoutable, dilemma.

And wholly appropriate to consider on Protestant Revolution Day.

"Mary was not at all about herself...she always praised and honored God and never expected nor desired the adulation and extreme worship that is given her."

I agree with everything you have written here save for the comment about worship. The Theotokos has never been worshiped. She is venerated, above all other creatures, but venerated, not worshiped. This seems to be a regular misunderstanding on FR.

c, what do you suppose the Archangel Gabriel, "the chiefest of them all" as we Orthodox chant, felt when he beheld the young woman he had been sent to by God, this angel who stands at the Throne of Almighty God? I suggest it was awe, an all consuming awe and thus he praises her as St. Luke tells us.

God is very keen to correct man when he attempts to put anything in-between the relationship we share with Him, especially when it interferes with the worship and praise He is worthy of.

People are designed to worship...some worship out of obedience alone...others out of heartfelt devotion...and still others to follow the crowd and feel included. But it is to the Lord alone we are to focus that worship...not to those who have departed and are enjoying Him in heaven.

I just cannot comprehend why people would exchange, let alone find pleasure in seeking anyone other than the Jesus.

c, the Theotokos, more than all the saints and angels of heaven, points us the way to Christ. In her humility, a humility you yourself recognize, she teaches us the proper attitude in life towards our Triune God and His divine will and plan. In this she displays an image of the divine humility of Christ as shown to us variously in the icon called "Extreme Humility" or of the humility shown by the Holy Spirit, Almighty God, which takes up Its abode in our persons. On the other hand, we also call her "Throne of the Divine Sovereign", "Thou who bearest Him Who beareth all" "Womb of the Divine Incarnation", "Thou through whom creation is renewed","Beginning of Christ's miracles", "Heavenly ladder by which God came down", "Wonder of angels sounded abroad", "Thou through whom hades was stripped bare", "Container of the Uncontainable God"; there are literally dozens and dozens of others and they all praise her but only in relation to Christ and the Incarnation. Do you disagree with any of these names, c? The last one is among my favorites because it is so full of Christian theology. There is an icon of this called the Platytera or the Platytera ton Ouranon, Wider than the Heavens. It shows Panagia with Christ in her belly, in other words, containing within her the very Creator of Existence. Here's a link to the icon:

http://www.ekklisia.de/H_Platytera_-_GUM__4_-Schnitt.jpg

"But then we were warned that man would do just that...and the 1,500,000 you mentioned are a drop in the bucket of those who are ripe for deception.... "narrow is the way and few who find it".

That's One Billion Five Hundred Million Christians, not 1.5 million. I know this isn't all about the numbers. If it were, there would be no Christian "denominations", no ecclesial groups, just The Church, but nevertheless it is hard to credit that only a tiny fraction of Christians and even then only since the 17th century or so and for all intents and purposes only in the West, have been graced by the Holy Spirit with the Light of the True Faith.