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In Christ Alone (Happy reformation day)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnTlIM5QgE ^ | Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7

In Christ Alone lyrics

Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm

What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand

In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save

?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live

There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again

And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ


TOPICS: Prayer; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: reformation; savedbygrace
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: annalex; MarkBsnr
Annalex: [The Scripture as produced by the Church] is inerrant

Kosta: There is no objective evidence of that. It's a demand placed on the faithful by the Church since Trent

Well, by faith.

Then say so. Just saying "scripture is inerrant" is (mis)leading unless you add "by faith", and only by faith.

Or rather, what the Jews saw darkly the Christians see clearly

Every sect/cult makes the same stupid argument in its favor, Alex. Try this: Or rather, what the Jews Christians saw darkly the Christians Mormons see clearly.

People die for their faiths. They believe every bit as you do that their version is the one true religion, their god one true god and their books one true scripture.

Trouble is—there is not a single shred of objective, provable evidence that it is, except by faith, and faith alone.

I believe it is an evolutionary process to come to that realization, and a matter of extraordinary maturity, and honesty, to admit it. But, then, not everyone evolves.

7,201 posted on 02/24/2011 10:28:34 AM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: metmom

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


7,202 posted on 02/24/2011 10:41:26 AM PST by Lera
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Ratzinger is a false bishop of Rome because he is not elected by the congregation. Authoritarian, hierarchical verticalism is contraindicated by the Scriptural example of the early church and the churches of the Reformation

I live in the diocese of Lafayette-in-Indiana and the pope chose our new bishop, no one even asked me my opinion nor would I have been able to give an intelligent one. The churches of the revolution (not reformation) are irrelevant because they chose not to participate in true Christianity....too bad for them, but they have no say in anything

7,203 posted on 02/24/2011 9:17:32 PM PST by terycarl (4)
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To: terycarl

Christ said we are to discern the sheep from the goats by the fruit of their lives.

Rome’s fruit is bitter because it leads men away from Christ and towards “another Christ” and a “co-redeemer” and “other mediators.”

Here’s just one corrupted apple...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/a-secret-shame-inside-the-latest-scandal-to-rock-the-catholic-church-1739889.html

Read your Bible and learn how pastors were chosen in the early church. Rome is a property management company run by pederasts masquerading as men of God.


7,204 posted on 02/24/2011 10:09:47 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; terycarl
Fruit of their lives. What about these?


7,205 posted on 02/25/2011 5:11:23 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; terycarl
To join your cult, the OPC, one must reject all of God's teachings and stop being a follower of Christ and become a follower of Calvin.

For Calvin teaches that one does not need to believe in Christ but one is part of an elite brahmin caste.

To become a member of the OrthodoPresbyterian Cult, one must throw out scripture and adopt the 14-page excerpted version of scripture with the colored pictures that the OPC believes in.

To become a member of the Orthodo PresbyterianCult, one must Acording to the OPC OrthoPresbyterianC: "Christians should not celebrate the Seder or other Jewish festivals. "

The followers of Machen, the OPC, disregard scripture where it calls men to repent, have faith, convert, and persevere. Instead they insist on some kind of non-scriptural preservation which is not only non-scriptural but also disagrees with the beliefs of their hero, St. Augustine who believed in perseverance of the saints, not preservation. Augustine did not believe in Calvin's understanding of the "perseverance of the saints,"


the OPC's theory that man can never lose his salvation, no matter what he does, so when they read 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21 the OPC believes that if anyone commits any such sin, there is no repentence for the followers of Calvin. Their deity will not take repentence, so the followers of Calvin will say that the person never was Christian at all!

To answer, they twist their weasel-words as
First between true and false conversion. The Bible recognizes that not everyone who says he believes in Christ really does
Voilą! (by the way, that means "see there" in French) -- the followers of Calvin-Machen use their rubber dictionaries to say "Oh, they never were Christian in the first place!"

And some more beauties of the OPC fate
Salvation of Infants Who Die

The Confession entertains the idea that at least some infants who die in infancy and some others "who are incapable of being outwardly called" are among the elect.

However, the Confession does not say that all such infants, etc., are saved.
The OPC believes that God pre-damns infants to eternal hell. This isn't the Christian God of Love.

To become a member of the OPC, one must deny the scriptures like Ezekiel 33 that says
12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.

13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.

14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right—

15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die.

16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

To be an OPC cult-member, one needs to hate Pentecostals and Methodists, followers of Arminianism and say that they follow a "damnable heresy"

To become a member of the OPC cult, one needs to abandon scripture which says
John 4:42 describes Christ as "the Savior of the world,"
1 John 2:2 Christ "is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."
1 Timothy 4:10 God is "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."


To become a member of the Orthodo Presbyterian Cult one must learn to hate and worship the CalvinGod of hate and reject Jesus Christ, the God of Love

7,206 posted on 02/25/2011 5:12:05 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; terycarl
This is what the fake cult called the OPC (guys who worship Machen in the manger for Christmas) teach:



"Calvinism is the Gospel and to teach Calvinism is in fact to preach the Gospel."
Arthur C. Custance, The Sovereignty of Grace, 1979.
"Calvinism is evangelicalism in its purest and only stable expression."
B.B. Warfield, Calvin and Augustine, ed. Samuel G. Craig, 1956.
"We believe with the great Baptist preacher, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, that Calvinism is just another name for Christianity."
John H. Gerstner, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism, 1991.

7,207 posted on 02/25/2011 5:15:31 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; terycarl

the Presbyterian church funded Angela Davis’ defense,


7,208 posted on 02/25/2011 5:21:16 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; terycarl
This Trinity Foundation website says "Last year The Trinity Foundation published Paul Elliott’s book, Christianity and Neo-Liberalism: The Spiritual Crisis in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and Beyond. That book examines in detail the false doctrine of salvation now being taught in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church

The above website says
Thus, the Report continues the conspiracy of silence that has prevailed in the OPC for three decades. It leaves the erroneous impression that the serious doctrinal problems are outside the denomination, not within it. The Report gives false comfort to those who think the OPC is still a bastion of Biblical orthodoxy. On the contrary, the Report, and the 2006 General Assembly’s commendation of it, both maintain the OPC as a safe haven for those who teach error

.....

Men within the OPC, including at least one member of the Committee itself, teach heresy regarding the Gospel and many other fundamentals of the faith.
you can read the details at the link on page 109 why the Former Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) ruling elder Paul M. Elliott says that

Why does a former ruling elder of the OPC say that? Well, he gives his reasons in his book about the heresy that he believes the OPC is following and he is urging every OPCer to leave. You can read it too if you want -- and if you disagree with him, he's given his posting and email address in the book. accordingly.

The author’s thesis is that the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) is today exactly where the PCUSA was back then.

7,209 posted on 02/25/2011 5:22:23 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; terycarl
From Trinity Lectures Foundation

The Orthodox Presbyterian Church was founded in 1936 by about 135 people who were offended by the lack of discipline in and doctrinal errors of the Presbyterian Church in the USA. .
But early in its history the OPC fell under the influence of an agnostic view of propositional revelation emanating from Westminster Seminary -- a view that said that there is no identity of content between the \"Christian system\" of theology, meaning Reformed confessions of faith, and the \"divine system\" of theology, known only to God.

This agnosticism has now brought the OPC to the point of falling. Like its predecessor, the PCUSA, the OPC has failed to discipline teachers who teach contrary to Scriptures and the Confession of Faith, and it has endorsed un-Biblical teaching about Scripture and the Gospel.

7,210 posted on 02/25/2011 5:22:51 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; terycarl
From Trinity Lectures Foundation

Despite the painstaking efforts of many fine Christians within the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC), the leaders of the OPC maintain a suicidal course. Despite the departure of congregations and individuals from the OPC, due to the leaders' collective inability to resolve the current justification controversy Biblically, the OPC leaders continue to advance doctrines that contradict Scripture. The OPC is, in the words of its late historian Charles Dennison, "obviously inept, bumbling, [and] confused."1 That confusion now appears to be fatal.

At this point in its history, the confessional affirmations of the OPC have no more credibility than the confessional affirmations of the PCUSA from 1936 to 1967. One of the commissioners to the 2004 OPC General Assembly made this very point: "There was a time when, if the OPC said it, it was accepted. The 2003 deliverance that accompanied the decision to acquit [John Kinnaird] destroyed forever that our words will not be questioned. The PCUSA always said that the [Westminster] Confession was their confession (even as they were denying it)."

Anyone joining the OPC should know they are headed for another split or dissolution -- they are not a Church founded on faith but on a fake prophet, Machen, coupled with their rejection of being followers of Christ and becoming followers of Calvin.

This is a house built on sand in the 1930s and will not live to see its centenary
7,211 posted on 02/25/2011 5:23:34 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; terycarl

The Presbyterian sect is simply flailing at wind as one more new denomination whose ancestors were deceived or dissident, or ignorant, and cooperated with the dropped 3/4 of the Christian faith and practices


7,212 posted on 02/25/2011 5:24:36 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: Cronos; Dr. Eckleburg; terycarl
To join your cult, the OPC, one must reject all of God's teachings and stop being a follower of Christ and become a follower of Calvin.

Follower of Calvin? Really? Could you please indicate in any of Calvin's writings where he said that? From my study of Calvin, I think he would be horrified to know that we have attached his name to any discipline of Biblical teaching. Evident particularly in the way that he denounces centralized anthropic teachings, his own words makes your claim regarding him absurd.

For Calvin teaches that one does not need to believe in Christ but one is part of an elite brahmin caste.

That is so over the top that I have no idea what Biblical doctrine your are trying to ridicule. It seems to me that you are laying out a choice in how people deal with you and your posts. Crap like this is virtual zot bait, in that as far as the admins allow, you can post this kind of dreck yet discover that you have been tuned out by your prospective audience. Or you can attempt to demonstrate some level of civility and respect for others and have a rational discussion.

Smackdown rhetoric can be fun, but calling the Remnant members of a cult? That isn't even heckling, its very much like the taunts and jeers of your typical Teamsters or SEIU thug. Don't be surprised if you have no friends in FR after posting this kind of junk.

7,213 posted on 02/25/2011 5:32:19 AM PST by The Theophilus (Pray for Obama (Psalms 109:8))
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To: The Theophilus; Dr. Eckleburg; terycarl

Follower of Calvin —> that’s the OPC. Are you in the OPC?


7,214 posted on 02/25/2011 5:41:11 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; terycarl
The OPC believes in double predestination, namely that calvingod decides before time that person A goes to heaven and robot B goes to hell.

They attack anyone denying their vision of a Robot-Master God who creates robots good and bad, programs them to good or evil and at the end of their lives the robot-Master says "ha! ha! you did the evil I programmed you to do, now burn in hell for all eternity"
7,215 posted on 02/25/2011 5:46:46 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: The Theophilus
tuned out by your prospective audience.

you are correct. However, this is not directed at you or any other rational poster with whom one can actually converse with -- it is directed at the poster who starts off by saying "...is a property management company run by pederasts masquerading as men of God..." --> what you said is relevant to that poster too, correct?
7,216 posted on 02/25/2011 6:08:42 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: Cronos
Follower of Calvin —> that’s the OPC. Are you in the OPC?

Me? I'm more of a John Gill/Charles Spurgeon styled Reformed Baptist who isn't hung up on baptism. A theological mutt if you will. Given that, I am sort of in exile because there isn't a local assembly anywhere approaching that flavor where I reside. A decade ago, I plead my case to some trusted friends and among the recommendations was an OPC within reasonable distance. I have been attending that assembly for the better part of a decade now, and might add, not once has the Pastor set aside the Bible and preached out of Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. I believe the Pastor's doctorate dissertation was based on Jonathan Edwards, the missionary to the native Americans.

Though I sit patiently and quietly through the paedo-baptism ceremonies, I haven't found anything objectionable being preached there. There are no paintings of Calvin, his name might be mentioned once or twice a year, ICR can be found in the "bookstore" along with home schooling materials, things from AiG, Sproul, a book or two by your former villain Gresham Machen, Pink and a host of other books and evangelical tools. Honestly, I can't find any signs of Calvin worship in nearly a decade of attendance.

In fact, a number of our friends left to attend a local PCA because they liked the high church format and that assembly has chosen to go down the Federal Vision path and all that it entails. As far as I know, the elders didn't dispatch a goon squad to "convince" them to return, nor was there an excommunication rally. We didn't burn anyone or any effigy at the stake in the church parking-lot nor brand anyone a heretic.

Having attended quite a number post-Eucharist potluck meals, never once have we been offered or told to drink the Kool-Aid. (I don't recall even seeing Kool-Aid available).

So I have been in the trenches, not as a proper voting member, but as a regular attendee, good friends with the congregation, the clergy and the full board of elders and deacons, and pastors of most of the Texas assemblies and all I find is genuine koinonia, solid biblical teaching, and a faithful assembly of the saints of God.

Maybe now you can understand why I find your claims way out of line - it comes no where to my experience with the OPC. In fact, we should all be thankful that the OPC has not followed the winds of change and the vanities of pop culture and "new ways of interpreting Scripture". The OPC doesn't have the usual grab-ass and nonsense found in Big Boxes, we don't have our pastor swinging down from the rafters in a Bataman costume, nor do we have truck rallies in the auditorium to attract the unchurched. Most of our hymns we sing weren't even written in the past century, we don't have sports figures delivering messages, rock bands to entertain the crowds, or skits to manipulate the kids to go to summer camp.

So please, tell me, where do find evidence of this freak show you keep talking about?

7,217 posted on 02/25/2011 6:22:35 AM PST by The Theophilus (Pray for Obama (Psalms 109:8))
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To: The Theophilus; Dr. Eckleburg
Where? In the regular comments by Dr. Eckleburg, champion of the OPC. That's where one can start to learn all of this.
7,218 posted on 02/25/2011 6:26:38 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: The Theophilus
oh, and this is from the OPC website saying that hate Pentecostals and Methodists, followers of Arminianism follow a "damnable heresy"

Also, this is their doctrinal website saying one must Acording to the OPC OrthoPresbyterianC: "Christians should not celebrate the Seder or other Jewish festivals. "

7,219 posted on 02/25/2011 6:32:13 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: The Theophilus
And all of this is from an ex-Ruling Elder of the OPC who now points out the numerous errors in the OPC

This Trinity Foundation website says "Last year The Trinity Foundation published Paul Elliott’s book, Christianity and Neo-Liberalism: The Spiritual Crisis in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and Beyond. That book examines in detail the false doctrine of salvation now being taught in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church

The above website says

Thus, the Report continues the conspiracy of silence that has prevailed in the OPC for three decades. It leaves the erroneous impression that the serious doctrinal problems are outside the denomination, not within it. The Report gives false comfort to those who think the OPC is still a bastion of Biblical orthodoxy. On the contrary, the Report, and the 2006 General Assembly’s commendation of it, both maintain the OPC as a safe haven for those who teach error

.....

Men within the OPC, including at least one member of the Committee itself, teach heresy regarding the Gospel and many other fundamentals of the faith.
you can read the details at the link on page 109 why the Former Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) ruling elder Paul M. Elliott says that

Why does a former ruling elder of the OPC say that? Well, he gives his reasons in his book about the heresy that he believes the OPC is following and he is urging every OPCer to leave. You can read it too if you want -- and if you disagree with him, he's given his posting and email address in the book. accordingly.

The author’s thesis is that the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) is today exactly where the PCUSA was back then.

7,220 posted on 02/25/2011 6:33:09 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: The Theophilus
Evidently you also see this 1930s group as unchanging, yet their very own ruling elder now points to the contrary. In the Trinity Lectures Foundation websitehe expounds this saying that

The Orthodox Presbyterian Church was founded in 1936 by about 135 people who were offended by the lack of discipline in and doctrinal errors of the Presbyterian Church in the USA. .
But early in its history the OPC fell under the influence of an agnostic view of propositional revelation emanating from Westminster Seminary -- a view that said that there is no identity of content between the \"Christian system\" of theology, meaning Reformed confessions of faith, and the \"divine system\" of theology, known only to God.

This agnosticism has now brought the OPC to the point of falling. Like its predecessor, the PCUSA, the OPC has failed to discipline teachers who teach contrary to Scriptures and the Confession of Faith, and it has endorsed un-Biblical teaching about Scripture and the Gospel.

The facts are that the OPC is heading down the same path as the PCUSA.

7,221 posted on 02/25/2011 6:37:53 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: Cronos
The facts are that the OPC is heading down the same path as the PCUSA.

I don't know about "facts", you surely have one man's opinion. I'll take my direct experience over the opinion of a malcontent.

YMMV

7,222 posted on 02/25/2011 12:34:03 PM PST by The Theophilus (Pray for Obama (Psalms 109:8))
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To: The Theophilus; Cronos
I've asked Cronos a dozen times to explain to us just what this man's beef with the OPC actually entails. What is the "heresy" he's talking about?

So far, Cronos has been unable to explain what the problem is; just that someone somewhere has a problem with something.

I'm really worried.

8~)

7,223 posted on 02/25/2011 3:41:38 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: The Theophilus
My husband worked for several months in Texas and he said there were several Orthodox Presbyterian churches in the area and that the one he attended in San Antonio was terrific.

After 10 years of watching those babes be brought into the family of Christ, aren't you warming up to it just a bit? 8~)

7,224 posted on 02/25/2011 3:49:21 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Cronos
"Calvinism is the Gospel and to teach Calvinism is in fact to preach the Gospel." Arthur C. Custance, The Sovereignty of Grace, 1979.

"Calvinism is evangelicalism in its purest and only stable expression." B.B. Warfield, Calvin and Augustine, ed. Samuel G. Craig, 1956.

"We believe with the great Baptist preacher, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, that Calvinism is just another name for Christianity." John H. Gerstner, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism, 1991.

AMEN!

7,225 posted on 02/25/2011 3:51:51 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Alex Murphy; Cronos
Well, I know this much:......

Which is an example of changing the subject and avoiding the question.

7,226 posted on 02/25/2011 3:52:01 PM PST by Hacksaw (Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy” — H.L. Mencken)
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To: Cronos; terycarl
The difference between the examples you give and the disgusting history of the Roman Catholic church is that in most of the Protestant cases the offender is arrested, convicted and sent to jail.

Whereas Rome hides and protects and shelters its pederasts, shuffling them around from one unsuspecting parish to the next where they can and do repeat their raping of children for decades.

You can follow me all over the forum, Cronos, and keep posting the blather you think proves something other than your church has no defense for its pederast priests and inherent idolatry.

No one is reading your gibberish. Rome's feeble attempts at deflection away from its corruption seldom work.

As God wills.

7,227 posted on 02/25/2011 3:58:25 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Alex Murphy; Cronos; Hacksaw; Quix; terycarl; The Theophilus; metmom; RnMomof7; caww; boatbums; ...
According to his book The Everyday Visionary, page 54, Jesse Duplantis claims "the Duplantis bunch was Catholic for a while", and that his bio says he was raised Catholic.

Now that's interesting.

Rome dresses its wolves in a variety of clothing.

7,228 posted on 02/25/2011 5:55:26 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Read your Bible and learn how pastors were chosen in the early church.

Matthias was chosen by the Apostles.

Acts 6: 2 2 So the Twelve called together the community of the disciples and said, "It is not right for us to neglect the word of God to serve at table. 3 3 Brothers, select from among you seven reputable men, filled with the Spirit and wisdom, whom we shall appoint to this task, 4 whereas we shall devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word." 5 The proposal was acceptable to the whole community, so they chose Stephen, a man filled with faith and the holy Spirit, also Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicholas of Antioch, a convert to Judaism. 6 They presented these men to the apostles who prayed and laid hands on them. 4 7 The word of God continued to spread, and the number of the disciples in Jerusalem increased greatly; even a large group of priests were becoming obedient to the faith.

The Apostles chose and ordained these men to be 'pastors' to the newly converted.

Ephesians 4: 1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Therefore, we have ample evidence that ministering in a clerical way to Christians is a calling by God and done by the Church laying hands on those called. It is not a popularity contest of each group.

7,229 posted on 02/25/2011 6:29:19 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Cronos
Why does a former ruling elder of the OPC say that?

Probably because he is a liar and a malcontent lunatic.

After visiting the website, I groaned when he dragged out the Auburn Avenue thing. Paul Elliot is a jackass. When the Federal Vision thing came out, there were people within the OPC who were buying into it, that much is true. Where Elliot leaves off is that many of the local assemblies had conferences on Auburn Avenue Federal Vision open to the laity. I know. I attended them. Up until that time, I had no idea that this sort of thing was making the rounds. Our pastor was very much against it, and as a result, several families within the congregation, over the course of a few months, gravitated to a PCA congregation that apparently embraces the teaching.

So Paul Elliot apparently thought the appropriate thing for the OPC to do was to torture and execute the heretics for their transgressions. That might be Plan 'A' for Rome, but that is not how Christians deal with error within the Church. This is part of the reason why Protestant denominations subscribe to a Confession, so that we have inter-generational and inter-regional stability within the Church. Furthermore, we are talking about brothers and sisters in Christ who are being lured into bad teaching. The appropriate response is not to kick them to the curb and piss on them, but to discuss it and settle the matter in a reasonable manner.

By evidence that those who subscribe to Auburn Avenue and/or NPOP left the OPC to find a PCA that accomodates their views demonstrates visibly that Paul Elliot is a liar and slanderer who obviously has an axe to grind. It also shows how well the OPC survives attacks as jackals like Elliot don't feel welcome.

This stuff really annoys me because there aren't that many denominations left that are faithful to the word. We have watched PC-USA and ELCA crash and burn, the Southern Baptists had their fling with blasphemers like Adrian Rogers at the helm, the American Religion is nothing but a racket to swindle people out of their time and money, Rome went apostate at Trent, and the list goes on.

I have reformed Baptist friends who once were members of the OPC, Jim was even an elder there, left for their own reasons, and haven't gone anywhere since because they believe that everything around them is not good enough. I go to the OPC because they are the most faithful to the Word here. I wish we had a place like Believer's Chapel of Dallas here (though they are officially classic Pre-mill). You go where you can that honors God the best. So when I see this dreck by Paul Elliot, and I am aware of the circumstances and yet Elliot grossly misrepresents the truth of what happened, it makes me wonder what else has gone on in his life to cause him to hate so much.

John 13:35

7,230 posted on 02/25/2011 7:07:53 PM PST by The Theophilus (Pray for Obama (Psalms 109:8))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Except that he’s decidedly very VERY unsupportive of Vatican Cult hogwash.


7,231 posted on 02/25/2011 7:27:46 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

He’s NOT the least bit in the Vatican’s camp.

He’s like Jesus—loves everyone potentially God’s kid . . . and he’s not per se about bashing groups just to bash them. However, he’ll quickly tell how the cow ate the cabbage whenever he perceives one’s left Biblical truth.


7,232 posted on 02/25/2011 7:30:33 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: MarkBsnr
A group of old men in dresses sitting in Rome has not been appointed to call pastors.

The congregation calls the pastors as was done in the early churches where a group of presbyters formed a type of committee which was in charge of local church affairs.

"Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves." -- 1 Thess. 5:11-13

The primary error of Rome is not understanding that the Apostolic age ended with the Apostles. There is nothing in Scripture to say the office of Apostle continued after Matthias took the place of Judas. It was the teaching of the Apostles which went out into the many churches of early Christendom. There were only 12 apostles of Christ. Any other "apostle" or disciple in Scripture is one who had been tasked with preaching the Gospel and establishing churches in the word of God. As an example, even though Barnabas is referenced as an "apostle" of the church, he later is led astray.

The office of the Apostles of Christ was very specific and involved only the original 12 men and Matthias who took over for Judas because these men alone fulfilled the requirements of Apostle...

"Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us

beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us, one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection." -- Acts 1:21-22

As is so often the case, Calvin has a Godly perspective on the choosing of Matthias...

So let us...consider what the Spirit speaks by the mouth of Peter. He begins by saying that the Scripture had to be fulfilled, lest anyone's mind should be troubled by the dreadful fall of Judas....

Peter's sermon is in two parts. Firstly he disposes of the difficulty which devout minds might have found in the fall of Judas; whence also he derives an exhortation that the rest may learn to fear God. Secondly, it remains for them to choose another in Judas' place. He establishes both by the witness of Scripture....

What he now brings in seems at first sight to be far-fetched. For if David spoke of transferring the bishopric to Judas, it does not at once follow that a successor should be elected by the disciples. Yet because they knew they had the charge laid upon them of ordering the Church, as soon as Peter has shown them that it was God's will that this should be done, he rightly infers that it is they who ought to execute the matter. For since God is pleased to use our agency for maintaining the government of the Church, as soon as we are assured of His will, we must not delay but diligently perform whatever our ministry demands. That was, beyond all controversy, the duty of the Church....

Only one was to be chosen in the place of Judas; they put forward two. It may be asked why they were not content with one. Was it because they were so like that they could not discern which was the more fit? This would surely not have been adequate reason for them to allow the matter to be decided by lot. And it seems also that Joseph was held in greater estimation. Or was it that there was a difference of opinion? This is highly unlikely, and is rendered untenable by the striking testimony that Luke gave a short time before to their unanimity. Finally it is not to be thought that they should mar the election of the apostle with such dissension. But the lot was introduced rather for this reason, that it might be known and witnessed to that Matthias was not to [sic] much chosen by the votes of men as appointed by the judgment of God. For there was this difference between the apostles and pastors, that whereas the pastors were chosen simply by the Church, the apostles must be called by God. Thus Paul in the preface to his epistle to the Galatians declares himself to be an apostle 'neither of men nor made by man.' Therefore as the distinction of this office was so great, it was fitting that in the election of Matthias, however well men had done their duty, the final decision should be left to God. Christ had appointed the others with His own voice; if Matthias had been adopted into their ranks by the choice of men alone, his authority would have been less than theirs. A middle course was adopted, whereby the disciples offered to God those whom they thought to be best and He should choose to Himself the one whom He knew to be most fit. Thus God, by the outcome of the lot declared that He approved the apostleship of Matthias. Now the disciples might seem to have acted rashly and irregularly in entrusting so important a matter to chance. For what certainty could they gain thereby? I reply that they had recourse to the lot only under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For although Luke does not say it was so, yet since he has no desire to accuse the disciples of rashness but rather makes it plain that the election was lawful and approved by God, I therefore affirm that they took this step under the guidance of the Holy Spirit; even as beyond doubt their whole course of action was dictated by the same Spirit. But why do they not pray that God should choose whom He would out of the whole multitude? Is not this to rob God of His freedom, when they limit Him to their choices and in a sense make Him subject to them? But anyone who will take time to consider the matter will clearly recognize from the sense of Luke that the disciples would have dared do nothing, which they did not know to be their duty, and to have been commanded them by God. As for those who raise difficulties, we shall let them go their own way." -- Calvin's commentary on Acts


7,233 posted on 02/25/2011 7:33:22 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: terycarl
Photobucket


MORE
UNMITIGATED
VATICAN CULT
BALDERDASH!

7,234 posted on 02/25/2011 7:36:02 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Alex Murphy

What great work you do. Love it.


7,235 posted on 02/25/2011 7:38:43 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; auggy; ...
JESSE DUPLANTIS EXCERPTS FROM

The Everyday Visionary: Focus Your Thoughts, Change Your Life By Jesse Duplantis

Pp54-57 excerpts

http://books.google.com/books?id=bbpT5lCnZrUC&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=%22jesse+duplantis%22+-raised+catholic&source=bl&ots=8MoNvqQEW6&sig=Lkl5JjgMNWIonGoBkoqmoJf4zgI&hl=en&ei=uIVmTfD8KcGp8AahyYWOCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

.

He speaks of being in poverty as a child. Evidently his wealth experience came from his rock career. I’d thought his family had had money.

P54:

When I was eleven years old, Mama told me, ‘Son, I want you to play in church for the camp meeting they’re having.’

‘Why would I want to do that?’ I asked. “First, they don’t pay. And second, they don’t even appreciate good music.’

But, as usual, Mama got her way and I went to the church on the night of the camp meeting to play my guitar. . . .

. . .

No, I had a habit when I played—I moved. . . . The music was in me and it was coming out of me . . . but I was in church, so it didn’t go over too well. Suddenly, the sound went dead and I heard a voice yell from the pew, ‘Get that kid off there!’ I looked and saw that they had just pulled the plug out of the socket. That was the first time I was thrown out of church.

‘You can’t play!’ they said. ‘You’ve got devil music in you!’ ‘And you’ve got some of that black music in you, too!’

I was flippant and said, ‘Yeah, well y’all need some black mamas in here! Them sorry fat white women can’t sing a lick!’ Oh, they were so mad, the spit was flying! . . .

. . . by the time I was in my early twenties, my talent had been honed. I had learned a lot about people and I could play music in my sleep. I’d sold my talent to the world. I was in a band, touring and making more money than I’d ever thought I’d make. I had it all by my own standards. I had enough money to buy whatever I wanted, when I wanted.

What made me walk away from it? Destiny.

There is a way that man goes in life—a way that he creates for himself—but it is fleeting and unfulfilling. Without God, even your greatest dream will one day feel empty and tired.

. . .

I got to a point in my life and in my career where there was no happiness at all. Music was nothing to me. It was just a way out of my childhood misery. It was my way to make money. I was strong-willed and strong-minded. I was full of bravado. I figured I had made it on my own and didn’t need anybody else but me, but I was wrong. I was miserable.

You see, my mama didn’t leave me alone. She prayed for me and prayed for me and prayed for me. Eventually her prayers and faith started working to bring me back to the altar of God. . . .

Mama knew that I was getting to a dead-end road. She knew that I needed God and she was right. You see, the moment I made the decision to reject God as a child was the moment my mama began to really intercede in prayer for me. Years went by, but eventually her destination and my destination met up. I gave my life to Christ after watching Billy Graham preach on television on Labor Day Weekend in 1974, and I did it right before I had to leave the hotel room to go and play a rock show.

That moment in the hotel room changed my desitnation in life.

After that, my direction in life wasn’t fueled by the poverty of my youth. It wasn’t fueled by my dysfunctional family or the hypocrites I saw growing up in church. It was fueled by a simple love for the One who first loved me—Jesus.

Love will change you. Love will take you from the place you thought you wanted to go, and redirect you to the place where you’re meant to be.

My place was with the Lord Jesus Christ—not alone. My place was His house—not in some rat-infested nightclub. My place was years later, His pulpit preaching the Gospel—not hitting the bass guitar, loaded up on drug, and scanning the place for women.

I wasn’t a good man, but God took me in. I thought only about myself, but He didn’t let that deter Him from opening His arms to me. God took me when no one else would. But it took that decision, that moment of salvation and surrender—that moment of change—to

[p57]
redirect my steps in life and to find a new destiny, a new destination, a place that God had made, just for me.

THERE’S NOTHING INFECTIOUS ABOUT SECONDHAND FAITH

Why didn’t I catch hold of the faith of those Christians that crossed my path when I was young? Why didn’t I have a life changing moment when I was young? Why did I have to go through so much sin to get to the place of salvation?

I believe it was because the people I saw as a young boy were trying to live off the faith of others. It was [!!!TRADITION!!!] tradition to them. They may have been living off the truth of their mama’s relationship with God. Maybe they were living off the faith of the founder of that church. Maybe they were trying to live off the faith of preachers of old.

It doesn’t really matter. You see, secondhand faith isn’t infectious. It’s just a bunch of rules and regulations. I don’t think I could catch real faith from them if I rubbed up against them all day. The only antidote for secondhand faith is firsthand relationship.

God doesn’t want to take anything from us. He wants to give everything to us. He’s not a taker, He’s a giver. Anything He asks you to give or give up has one purpose—to make your life better, to open the door for you to receive more.

God didn’t ask me to give up my musical career in a rock band. He didn’t ask me to cut my long, 1970s hair or even stop doing drugs or drinking. He asked for my heart. He showed me His love. He showed me a path that was greater than the one I was walking on before.

I chose to leave the band because it was at odds with my new firsthand relationship with God. I chose to stop drinking and doing drugs because I no longer needed those things as a crutch in my life. Did I know where I was going in life after I met Jesus? No, I didn’t! I didn’t know what would become of me. I just knew I had to follow after God.

PRAISE GOD FOR HIS FAITHFULNESS!

7,236 posted on 02/25/2011 8:25:52 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

Wow!! I haven’t been paying a whole lot of attention to this thread. It’s gone viral!


7,237 posted on 02/25/2011 8:50:28 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

Praise God for using even the jerks and their mean-spirited nonsense to work His will.


7,238 posted on 02/25/2011 9:00:56 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix
MORE UNMITIGATED VATICAN CULT BALDERDASH!

cute seal, but as usual, you, as a protestant, have no idea at all of what you are talking about. You can't take an organization 1,500 years old and decide to set your own rules as to how she should be operated....thousands of people (perhaps smarter than you) throughout the years have determined that Catholicism was pretty much the way it is....but nope, along comes Martin and his group trying to convince mankind that he could do it better....I don't think so.....in fact there are now about 20,000 "denominations" who think that they EACH have it right We have our newest here....the heartland church...O.K. I guess, but I don't think Christ founded it 2010 years ago

7,239 posted on 02/25/2011 9:04:29 PM PST by terycarl (4)
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To: Quix

LOL I read through some of the posts and I can tell you that the back and forth has convinced me that my stance on no organized church for me is the right one for me.


7,240 posted on 02/25/2011 9:04:38 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: terycarl
Photobucket


Sadly,
more unmitigated
Vatican Cult
UNHISTORICAL
UNBIBLICAL
NONSENSE.

7,241 posted on 02/25/2011 9:14:11 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: CynicalBear

Have gone through many periods where both sides of that have been by turns, right for me according to God’s leading.

I do think that as the END TIMES progress . . .

most authentic believers will end up in Holy Spirit arranged, associated groups, home groups primarily, imho, as authentic believers are driven underground in most areas.


7,242 posted on 02/25/2011 9:16:22 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix
>> most authentic believers will end up in Holy Spirit arranged, associated groups, home groups primarily, imho, as authentic believers are driven underground in most areas.<<

I agree. As I watch most every organized church move towards accepting the “many ways to” attitude and mantra it’s becoming obvious to me that the personal relationship with Jesus is lacking in most organized religions.

7,243 posted on 02/25/2011 9:28:17 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

Yup.


7,244 posted on 02/25/2011 9:34:27 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

Thanks for the ping!


7,245 posted on 02/25/2011 9:48:53 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: kosta50
I believe it is an evolutionary process to come to that realization, and a matter of extraordinary maturity, and honesty, to admit it. But, then, not everyone evolves.

So we can assume you think you HAVE evolved to extraordinary maturity and honesty? There is plenty of objective truth concerning the reliability of the Bible, ignoring or minimizing it is hardly honest to me or mature.

7,246 posted on 02/25/2011 10:22:12 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums
So we can assume you think you HAVE evolved to extraordinary maturity and honesty?

Yes, I realize that different cultures created different deities and that each claims to be the "true one". I do think it takes certain amount of maturity and honesty to realize and admit that this is something man-made, and not made in heaven.

There is plenty of objective truth concerning the reliability of the Bible

Only on faith, and that's not objective, but subjective.

ignoring or minimizing it is hardly honest to me or mature.

It's not minimizing anything, but recognizing that man created his own religions.

7,247 posted on 02/26/2011 1:31:03 AM PST by kosta50
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To: Quix

Wow! Great testimony! Thanks for posting & pinging!


7,248 posted on 02/26/2011 9:35:46 AM PST by cinciella
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To: Quix

Wow! Great testimony! Thanks for posting & pinging!


7,249 posted on 02/26/2011 9:35:55 AM PST by cinciella
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To: MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg
Matthias was chosen by the Apostles.

Before they had the indwelling Holy Spirit.. that was a decision of the flesh not God..

There is never another mention of Matthias again in the NT.. instead we have a NT that is filled with the writings of the man GOD chose as an apostle..

The scripture you quote (acts 6) was one where the new church was seeking to quiet a complaint by the greek believers that there was a favoritism in the distribution of goods to the elderly and needy. This is not about selecting PASTORS but deacons

7,250 posted on 02/26/2011 9:44:25 AM PST by RnMomof7
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