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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; metmom; stfassisi
"Thus, the backing for these presumptions is never ourselves, but our understanding of what God's word says and that it is true."

That's just the problem, FK, "our understanding of what God's word says". The Church's understanding, we may be sure, is correct; our own personal understanding...not so sure. These matters are as we say "up to God". We shouldn't presume anything and hope for everything through God's mercy. I may have mentioned to you over the years, a collection of spiritual writings, mostly but not exclusively by monks, called the Philokalia. The thoughts of +Peter of Damascus, probably from the 12th century, are the most quoted in that book. He wrote for monks and his spiritual children but his observations have value to others, lay people, even today. In a section called "A Treasury of Divine Knowledge", he wrote: "...presumption alone, without any other sin, is enough to destroy the soul; for he who regards his sins as trivial is allowed to fall into those that are greater..." Worth remembering.

"Theological differences aside, it's a beautiful prayer."

Indeed it is.

4,812 posted on 12/05/2010 12:57:29 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr

“”These matters are as we say “up to God”. We shouldn’t presume anything and hope for everything through God’s mercy.””

Well said,with this in mind ,we are led to be humble and avoid being puffed up.

I like what Blessed Cyprian had to say...

“Confession is the beginning of glory, not the full desert of the crown; nor does it perfect our praise, but it initiates our dignity; and since it is written, “He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved,” Matthew 10:22 whatever has been before the end is a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation, not a terminus wherein the full result of the ascent is already gained.”
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050701.htm


4,816 posted on 12/05/2010 1:16:14 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; metmom; stfassisi
That's just the problem, FK, "our understanding of what God's word says". The Church's understanding, we may be sure, is correct; our own personal understanding...not so sure. These matters are as we say "up to God". We shouldn't presume anything and hope for everything through God's mercy.

I can agree with this entirely, but from a very different perspective. First I think we would disagree on what the composition of "The Church" really is. In addition we would disagree on the source of "our understanding of what God's word says". If God really doesn't care to lead us, but rather only a few men, then we should just presume to blindly follow what other fallible men say. -- I think I remember that on the Orthodox side the laity has to approve of the pronouncements of the Bishops, but that such authority is very rarely invoked. -- But in any case if God does want a personal relationship with us, then we may presume that He does indeed lead us. It appears to be a presumption either way, in favor of Holy Spirit leading groups or individuals, based on our world views of the relationship God wants to have with us.

4,886 posted on 12/06/2010 9:32:46 AM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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