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To: boatbums; Lera
Perhaps Lera HAS read through more than the "relevant" verses and relies upon the words of Jesus himself, you know GOD - the one who "has the final word", although I'm sure whoever her pastor is, he doesn't bleat (don't sheep do that?). Jesus said most forcefully, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". It sure seems like God has already given his final word on the subject. Who are we to think we need to more meaningfully discuss it?

I have seen far too many bleating pastors; the Catechism is very clear on the matter; she did not post it in her reply; the fact of the matter is that the Church has been taught about Christ and that while there may be other paths to salvation, we do not know of or are qualified to even consider them. Yet salvation is of the Lord and He has the final say. I'm sure that Lera needs defense and is quite grateful to have you step in as her own personal F. Lee Bailey.

5,013 posted on 12/08/2010 5:52:07 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr; Lera
the fact of the matter is that the Church has been taught about Christ and that while there may be other paths to salvation, we do not know of or are qualified to even consider them. Yet salvation is of the Lord and He has the final say.

So, are you then saying that the Catholic Church does not really believe what it says about its role in salvation? I have had this discussion with other Catholics, and their argument has usually been along the lines of not wanting to condemn the "poor savage in the deepest, darkest jungle" or those they imagine cannot possibly ever hear of the truth about Christ. It then boils down to, "Well, if they are really good people, then God will be merciful and let them into heaven." Yet we know several things that dispute these ideas.

First, and foremost, is the truth that "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Rom. 3:23) We also know that, "The wages of sin is death." (Rom. 6:23) , "Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins." (Lev. 17:11). Jesus, himself, as I quoted in an earlier post - which was in no way intended to presume Lera could not defend her own position (but I'm sure you knew that, right?). He said he was THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and NO ONE came to the Father BUT through him (John 14:6). So unless you either believe Jesus lied, or was ignorant, you must accept his words as the truth.

I can hear the wheels turning over the internet, "Then HOW can God condemn someone who has no way of ever hearing that?". This presumes a number of things, not the least is placing a limit on the power of the Holy Spirit in this world of whom it is said "He (the Holy Spirit), when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment" (John 16:8). We know that the spirit of God has always been in the world drawing all people to God who search for truth and we cannot limit God by saying he will ignore the heart that diligently seeks him. I trust that God, who loves people more than I can ever imagine and who desires for all to be saved, will get the truth to those who want it. There are numerous instances given in the Bible of people from far away lands coming to faith in the Messiah both from the OT and the NT.

There are NO other paths to salvation and God would be made a liar if he saves some through Christ and others because they are "good" and would believe if they only heard it. That is Satan's lie. Don't limit God.

5,035 posted on 12/08/2010 11:12:59 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: MarkBsnr
I have seen far too many bleating pastors; the Catechism is very clear on the matter; she did not post it in her reply; the fact of the matter is that the Church has been taught about Christ and that while there may be other paths to salvation, we do not know of or are qualified to even consider them. Yet salvation is of the Lord and He has the final say. I'm sure that Lera needs defense and is quite grateful to have you step in as her own personal F. Lee Bailey.



Catechism isn't clear on anything , if it were it would simply state what the Bible states on the matter instead of twisting it around and adding to it.


1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1Jn 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.



Only ONE way , there is no other path.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Everyone is called but some people refuse the invitation so they are not chosen.

Mat 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Mat 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: Mat 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

If you seek you will find
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.



5,038 posted on 12/09/2010 12:14:49 AM PST by Lera
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