Posted on 11/17/2010 12:26:42 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(Romans 8:1-4)
Many translations of the Bible, including the King James, have the expression “who walk not after the flesh, but the spirit” at the end of verse 1 of Romans 8. Other versions of the Bible, such as the New American Standard version (NASV), go with older manuscripts which don’t have that phrase at verse one, but do have it at verse 4 as the KJV has it also.
The NAS version seems to ring true to me, for it goes better with the flow of thought. The whole of the passage , verses 1-4 apply to those who are described as the ones who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.
What do these expressions refer to?
First of all let us discuss the word “walk”, for it those who “walk after the Spirit” who are no longer condemned and in whom the very Righteousness of the Law is fulfilled.
A person’s “walk” refers to the overall course of his life. Christianity is a “Way” in which we walk. We once “walked according to the course of this world”,(Ephesians 2:1-3), we are told not to “Walk in the counsel of the ungodly”, in Psalm 1.
Martyn Lloyd Jones is helpful here, with his usual clarity,
“A man walks in a particular way, we are told; and that means that he is governed by certain principles which control His life – his thought, his judgment,his feelings;the objects he is interested in, his purposes, everything”.(Jones,Martyn Lloyd Romans 8 p.344 Banner of Truth)
Secondly , take the word ‘flesh’. There are three uses of this word in scripture, it could refer to ‘mankind’ in general, but not here. It could also refer to the body, but not in this case.
Flesh, here, as “in the flesh”, refers to who we were in our unregenerate state. It is another way of saying, “In Adam”, and hearkens back to Romans 5 and it’s division of all of humanity into “in Adam” or “In Christ”.
“In the Flesh” doesn’t refer specifically to gross sinfulness, although it would include that. It means life lived without the Holy Spirit, whether moral or immoral, civilised or Barbarian. Those who walk in the flesh are merely those who have not been born again by God’s Spirit.
Therefore those who are “in the flesh” are yet “under the Law” whether they know it or not.They view God and His salvation(if at all), from the perspective of law,works, merit and effort, they do not see the need for the grace of the Holy Spirit.
To walk after the Spirit, is to have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and to have been shown the need to be regenerate, and to indeed receive the new principle of Life, “the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus”.
To refer to Paul’s analogy in Romans 5, “In the Spirit” is another way of saying, “In Christ”. It means to be made Spiritual by the gift of salvation, to have been brought into the direct influence of the Holy Spirit of God.
These are not just subjective terms, as if to say that there are times when I am “in the Spirit” and other times when I am “in the flesh”. Nor is it true that there are two classes of christians, those who are “Carnal” and those who are “spiritual”.
Romans 8;1-4 is a statement about all christians, that there is no condemnation for any christian, for the “Law of th Spirit of Life in Christ” has liberated all of us from the “law of sin and death”.
Christ came “in the likeness of sinful flesh as an offering for sin” for all of us, and because he “condemned sin in the flesh” all of us will have the righteousness of he law fulfilled in us by the Spirit. There is no such thing as a carnal christian, for as Romans 8 goes on to say,
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.(Romans 8:9)
T
Thank you Lord Jesus!!!!
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus...” A lot of people like to put the period right there.
If one is in Christ Jesus, wouldn't the rest of that be done by Him through you? Or are you saying someone can be in Christ Jesus but be condemned because they made a choice not to walk in the Spirit? If someone is condemned, doesn't that mean they aren't in Christ Jesus?
Didn’t Paul say something about him being given over to a reprobate mind? Wasn’t Paul in Christ? Seems to me there are straight forward conditions given throughout scripture. For instance, forgiveness is conditional, as Jesus taught with the Lord’s prayer. If you don’t forgive, you won’t be forgiven. Run the good race? Jesus works through us, with us, but God isn’t a tyrant. If there is choice to begin with, which there is, then it would be meaningless to take that choice away, making the conversion experience more like some existential, mystical experience than Jesus saying “Follow me.” “Choose this day who you will follow.” But like Israel, expect a divorce, should you choose not to follow.
“Or are you saying someone can be in Christ Jesus but be condemned because they made a choice not to walk in the Spirit?” Yes, I am saying that. Carnal minds will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. People choose to follow Christ, and they can make the choice, or the choices to stop. If they make the choice to stop, God isn’t going to force them into the Kingdom. That kind of Kingdom would be a puppet show, not real, and God is a real God who has made us real people, before and after our following Jesus Christ. If means if, and I’ve found no evidence in scripture that would persuade me to believe that if means God will force us to meet the conditions presented. As Jesus said, His mothers, brothers and sisters are those who hears his Word, and follow him.
But, it’s a fair guess that I’m not going to talk you out of your Calvinism, and you are not going to talk be out of my Arminianism, so God bless you in your walk with Christ, and may we someday meet in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Then wouldn't you agree that person is not in Christ? What I mean is that it sounds to me as though you are saying someone can be "in Christ" and then fall "out" of Christ. Is that correct?
If someone can fall "out", can they then choose to get back in Christ? Doesn't scripture say something about that being like crucifying Christ all over again?
But, it’s a fair guess that I’m not going to talk you out of your Calvinism, and you are not going to talk be out of my Arminianism
I'm not a Calvinist. I do believe "once saved, always saved." We are promised eternal life, not life until you sin again. If that were all God was offering, then we could simply have continued to offer the blood of goats and bulls - Christ was not needed.
“I’m not a Calvinist. I do believe “once saved, always saved.” We are promised eternal life, not life until you sin again. If that were all God was offering, then we could simply have continued to offer the blood of goats and bulls - Christ was not needed.”
This is too arrogant, and too idiotic for you, and you should know better. Your association of those who believe following our Lord Jesus Christ as He instructed us to do with sacrificing goats and whatever, is stupid. If you really want to get into this, it will have to be on a higher level.
That's not what I was doing, and you would have known that if you had actually read my post instead of jerking your knee.
What I was equating with sacrificing of bulls and goats was claiming that one could be saved, then be unsaved, then be saved, then be unsaved. To claim that is the case is to claim Christ can be crucified over and over again.
Yes, we should strive to walk as the Lord instructed us. But we don't become "unsaved" every time we fail to do so, either by ignorance or choice.
That's not what I was doing, and you would have known that if you had actually read my post instead of jerking your knee.
What I was equating with sacrificing of bulls and goats was claiming that one could be saved, then be unsaved, then be saved, then be unsaved. To claim that is the case is to claim Christ can be crucified over and over again.
Yes, we should strive to walk as the Lord instructed us. But we don't become "unsaved" every time we fail to do so, either by ignorance or choice.
Quoting Hebrews there. :)
You asked this question: "Doesn't scripture say something about that being like crucifying Christ all over again?"
For it is impossible for those who are once enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come if they fall away to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put him to an open shame.
I assume this is the scripture you are referring to. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Hebrews is dealing with Jews who had accepted Jesus as the Son of God and lived the Christian life, only to return to synagogue where they were required to deny that Jesus is the Son of God, putting Him to public shame. That denial required that they subscribe to the apologetics used by the Sanhedrin to explain away the deity of Jesus, making him a common man and liar. It was more than just a denial of knowing Christ, like Peter, and more than a choice to return to carnal desires because of our sinful nature and temptation. It is even more than what Judas did. The writer of Hebrews was addressing apostasy that literally undid the belief the apostates had had in Christ, and doing it in a very public forum that would influence many people. So yes, I will concede that there is a point of apostasy that people who once believed Jesus is the Son of God and who abided in his commandments can succumb to that will indeed assure damnation. Whether or not you accept my analysis here, it bears pointing out that this passage makes it quite clear that it is possible to be in Christ and lose that relationship through apostasy. It isn't a passage that supports the once saved, always saved position, quite the opposite. This passage also lays to rest the "once saved, always saved" contention that someone who turns away from Christ was never really a Christian in the first place.
...Talk about a cruel, psychological mind-bender to place on someone. Am I really saved, or aren't I? If twenty years from now I slip and fall into apostasy, was everything prior to that an illusion? Where exactly is the assurance of salvation? We humans being the game players that we are, I suppose a fallen Baptist minister could come to his senses after twenty years and say, "I wasn't really saved, so now I can get really saved." After that, he might get to wondering if he was really saved the second time. Certainly it isn't the simple assurance John gives when he says:
...1John 3:24 Now he who keeps his commandments abides in him, and He in him, and by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1John 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1John 5:1-2 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves the Son. By this we know that we love the children of God when we love God and keep his commandments.
Now to address the accusation that I am suggesting using Jesus Christ as our personal sacrifice like we would do using animal sacrifices over and over again.
Matt: 18:12-14 ...What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one goes astray, does he not leave the 99 and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying, and if he should find it, assuredly I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the 99 that did not go astray. Even so, it is not the will of your Father who is in Heaven that one of these little ones should parish.
My question here is why Jesus chose to use the word "if." That implies that the lost sheep might not be found, and then what? Now if the sheep wasn't really in danger of being lost, it seems foolish for the shepherd to leave the 99 and go after him. After all, sticking to the OSAS reasoning, either that sheep wasn't part of the flock in the first place, or that sheep can't really be lost. Or, if we are to go to the extreme that I have heard some OSAS apologist go to, nothing that sheep can do will make him lost. As we just read in Hebrews, that isn't the case.
James 5:19-20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and cover a multitude of sins.
What kind of death do you think James is talking about here? The wandering brethren is going to die at some point, like we all do. James is obviously talking about spiritual death for a brother in Christ who was in the "truth." It doesn't sound to me like the brethren that wander away needn't worry because they are always saved, nor does it sound like James is talking about someone who was mistaken about really being in the "truth," which can only be someone who is in Christ.
Let me include a few more passages to liven up this debate.
Romans 11: 21-23 "Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, If you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again."
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered: and they gather them, and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. ...Of course, we need to go back to get the full context, where Jesus said, I am the vine. You are the branches. He who abides in me and I in him, bears much fruit.
1John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep his commandments. vs 4 He who says I know him, and does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 2John 9:1 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
I've gone on enough for the moment, so tell me: Do you believe people who fall away from Christ were never truly in Christ in the first place, or do you believe that a Christian can be completely carnal, and still be saved?
Indeed. And then in Jude, verse 24, it says "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy". Hmmm. . .that seems to be saying that it is the Lord who keeps us from falling, not we ourselves.
I will say that Judas appeared to everyone except the Lord to be a believer, but as we know, he wasn't. On the other hand, Peter, who we know was saved, denied Christ three times on the night Jesus was crucified. At an earlier time, Jesus had said to Peter "get thee behind me, satan".
Neither you nor I can know for sure whether someone is truly in Christ or not. We can only judge based on the fruit we see (or think we see), and then we can behave as the bible tells us to.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "completely carnal". I've seen all kinds of things called "carnal" that I would not classify in the same way.
I guess it's a good thing to leave the judgment of our eternal souls to the Lord. :)
I'm not sure what your "Indeed" means in regards to what I said, but no matter.
Jude vs 24 goes well with Jude 21: Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
I would draw your attention to the admonishment "Keep yourselves..." But I should add my own "indeed", because it is indeed Jesus who sustains us to present us before His Father in the Kingdom of Heaven. Rest assured though, Jesus isn't going to drag any of us kicking and screaming into the Kingdom. Jesus won't give us temptation beyond what we can bear, but it is foolish to suggest Christians don't give into temptation. So what is happening? If we choose to sin and wander out of the flock, we put ourselves at risk. It isn't God's fault, and it isn't a test of His ability to keep us. Where does our choice in accepting the salvation of Jesus Christ start and end?
Lets go back a bit more in vs 4: For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men who change the grace or our God into a license for immorality, and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign Lord. While I don't think this scripture is particularly about eternal security teachers who turn God's grace into a license to sin, I have heard them do just that by suggesting that a brother once saved can fall into all sorts of horrible immorality and still be saved. Hmmmm! if that isn't license to sin, what is? I refer you to Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious, sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery, idolatry and witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy, drunkenness, orgies and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the Kingdom of God. ...We might note that Paul is addressing Christians.
...There are a lot of people who said their sinner's prayer, joined churches and changed their lives who have slipped back into carnal lives. Who is right about what will happen to them, OSAS preachers who teach a Christian is saved no matter what they do, or Paul?
Are you suggesting that every time we sin, we become "unsaved" and have to be "resaved"? Once again, that says to me we would be crucifying Christ over and over again.
Who is right about what will happen to them, OSAS preachers who teach a Christian is saved no matter what they do, or Paul?
I believe they are both right, as I believe Paul taught it is God who saves, we don't save ourselves by our actions.
“Are you suggesting that every time we sin, we become “unsaved” and have to be “resaved”? Once again, that says to me we would be crucifying Christ over and over again.”
Nope, that’s not what I am suggesting. I have posted a number of scriptures now, and said plainly that the choice to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and follow His commandments is not the end of our freewill. I’ve asked you where you stood with your OSAS position, and you haven’t answered me. Do you believe that a Christian can lead a carnal life and still be saved, or do you believe that such a person was never saved at all. If you choose the former, the only allowance you make for freewill is a person’s original decision to be saved. After that, you might as well join the Calvinist puppet show, because accordingly, all scriptures saying a person who chooses to live in sin won’t enter the Kingdom of Heaven can no longer apply to those who have chosen to be an elite by believing in Jesus Christ.
If you choose the latter course, you give up on assurance of salvation because you don’t know who will fall and who won’t, including yourself, and therefore don’t know who is saved and who isn’t. I’ve listened to some wonderful Baptist preachers give their apologetics against Calvinism, only to wind up in this logical trap, usually without realizing what they have gotten themselves into.
Simply put, we can’t do anything within ourselves to achieve salvation, including religious works and deeds, circumcision, observing Sabbaths, animal sacrifices, chanting, whatever. There is no way to salvation except through Jesus Christ. That has been true for everyone since the day Adam sinned, but you know that. Were we differ is in our in our interpretation of salvation. Is it an event that happens at a certain point in time, a sort of existential experience with God that can’t be undone, no matter what we choose afterwards, or is the “sinner’s prayer” a beginning of saving faith and walking in God’s grace that doesn’t nullify our freewill and the consequences thereof? What I am saying is that salvation is a present tense experience that requires our continued faith and commitment to following the commandments of Jesus Christ. Does that mean that I am saying every time you sin you lose your salvation? Nope. It means that you can sin and go astray, and if you don’t repent, you will eventually be lost. When is up to God. When Paul spoke of not wanting to be given over to a reprobate mind, he wasn’t just talking gibberish to keep us inline. He knew that unless he ran the good race, he could be turned over to a reprobate mind. He also meant it when he said that God forbids grace being an excuse for sin to abound. Jesus explained as much with the parable of the wicked master who upon being forgiven for much refused to forgive his savant a much lesser debt. This was a Kingdom of Heaven parable, or should I say a getting into the Kingdom of Heaven teaching principle. God, the good master, gave forgiveness and took it back. Can you receive forgiveness if you choose not to forgive others? No! The Lord’s Prayer tells us as much. If God has forgiven you, and you follow him for awhile, but then choose not to forgive someone, perhaps a fellow brother in Christ who Jesus has commanded you to love, can you lose the grace you’ve been given? Unless Jesus was just spinning fiction to entertain us, you can. Can you be grafted back into the vine, or returned to the flock. I think scripture tells us you can, but your Hebrews passage, far from teaching OSAS, warns you against the ultimate consequence of turning your back on Jesus.
I believe a person who has been saved will have a changed life. They can temporarily slip in carnality, but they will be drawn back just as the prodigal was drawn back to his father. They don't lose their salvation when that happens, just as the prodigal did not lose sonship when he left. But we do lose fellowship with our Father, just as the prodigal did.
As to "carnal life", that can mean a lot of things. An awful lot of Christians struggle, sometimes all their lives, with one particular besetting sin. They can have a life bearing much fruit otherwise.
“I believe a person who has been saved will have a changed life. They can temporarily slip in carnality, but they will be drawn back just as the prodigal was drawn back to his father. They don’t lose their salvation when that happens, just as the prodigal did not lose sonship when he left. But we do lose fellowship with our Father, just as the prodigal did.”
What if they don’t return, like the Christians in Hebrews who went back to law and rejected Jesus as the Messiah? What of the sheep that wanders away from the flock to be eaten by wolves, the seeds sewn on bad ground or the unproductive vines that are cut off and burned? I trust that Jesus meant what he said when he told us to forgive those who sin against us seventy times seven times, if need be Jesus taught by example, and he doesn’t change. I also believe that people, even after choosing to believe in Jesus and accept his grace, can still choose to walk away, or apostatize, if you will. In fact, it is impossible to be an apostate from something you never were. Yes, many will return to Christ, and I’ve seen some who have sunk well beyond where many unrepentant, non Christians would descend to, only to return like the prodigal son. I wonder though what their fate would have been had they died before returning to their Father’s Kingdom. There is that point of being given over to a reprobate mind, and Paul wasn’t speaking of non Christians when he feared it for himself. Without judging, I’ve seen many who were once in Christ who fit into the scriptural criteria of someone who will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Without agonizing over the implications of the word carnal, I mean it to describe anyone who puts the desires of their human nature above God. That would include every Christian ever born again, at some point in their Christian walk. None of us are ever completely free of our human nature as long as we live in these bodies, in this reality. Christianity is about where you are going with your life, hopefully to the Kingdom of Heaven.
What about the Christians with the little, persistent sins that they can’t get away from, Christians who smoke a pack of cigarettes a day, or those who serf the porno when their wives aren’t looking, or those who lose their tempers from time to time in an occasional fit of rage, or maybe those who get a little drunk on weekends? Then there are those who have an occasional affair and way too many who have occasionally divorces. For that matter, what about Christians who watch too much TV, or spend too much time engaged in politics, those Christians who don’t love their neighbors as they love themselves, and don’t love fellow Christians as Jesus loved us? While I’m sure that the grace of God is sufficient enough for all of them, I also think they are putting themselves into precarious positions that might not work out too well for them if they choose not to live in that grace.
Then I will leave it to God to determine if they were ever saved in the first place.
I also believe that people, even after choosing to believe in Jesus and accept his grace, can still choose to walk away, or apostatize, if you will.
I guess we disagree. As I think I mentioned previously, I believe once one has been saved, that person has received eternal life, not life as long as they do the right things.
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