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To: rbosque

In 1 Corinthians 9, Paul’s self-discipline comes in the context of reward for ministry, not basic salvation. Paul in many other places expresses a complete confidence that his departure from this life would be followed by life with Christ. He knew of his special calling ever since the Damascus experience, but he knew, as most Christians do, that God ordains the means as well as the ends, and if he was to fulfill his special mission and receive the reward of his ministry, he could not succumb to the temptations presented by his body.

The specific context of the section of Romans 11 you quote is speaking to the issue of God sending the Gospel to the Gentiles versus Israel. Paul is not speaking of elected individuals becoming unelected; he is only saying that just as God is sovereignly free to graft in the Gentiles to the ministry of the Gospel upon the failure of Israel to accept Messiah Jesus, just as well God could once again sovereignly choose Israel as the primary focus of election and leave the Gentiles out. The point is that Gentiles, as a class, have no right to think of themselves as anything special, just because God decided to show them mercy. Mercy is no basis for pride, and God’s election of many among the Gentiles and calling them to himself through the Gospel ministry could just as easily come to an end in some future day. “Don’t get cocky.”

As for Philippians 2:12, I only ask that you quote the passage more fully:

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” Philippians 2:12-13.

Once again, this is just the ordination of both ends and means, and no Calvinist worth his or her salt would have a problem with this passage, because it really expresses what Calvinism believes, that God saves the whole person, not just his future state. That’s what the perseverance of your Matthean passages is all about. The perseverance is there, not because sinful, carnal humans can persevere of their own power, but because being saved entails becoming one who perseveres because of God working in them both to will and to do what pleases God.


58 posted on 11/21/2010 10:18:48 PM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer

“...comes in the context of reward for ministry”?

That’s not the context of the passage. Paul was humbling himself before God and feared for his salvation should he not fulfill his mission.

Of course you have no problem with these passages, you just ignore their intended meaning and prescribe a meaning that fits your beliefs. The Bible is a Catholic book that’s been around way before Calvin and like any other Protestant sect you interpret it how ever you please.

Jesus Christ Himself said, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 7:21

“Why do you ask me what is good? One there who is good, and he is GOD. But if you will enter into life, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.” “Which commandments?” the man asked. Jesus said, “Never murder. Never commit adultery. Never steal. Never give false testimony. Honor your father and mother. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.”
Matthew 19:17-19
These verses clearly have said that if we do not obey the commandments, we will not have (eternal) life.
So if a person who thinks he is “saved”, and then lies or commits adultery,
how then does he reconcile his actions with Matthew 19:17-19 and Revelation 21:7-8 and 21:27?

Jesus did cure the infirmed man at the pool in John 5:1-9, and later He told him in verse 14, “See, you are well! SIN NO MORE, THAT NOTHING WORSE BEFALL YOU.” Does that sound like, “once saved, always saved”?

Here is yet another example, the woman caught in adultery in John 8:1-10. Jesus had prevented her from being stoned to death, and in verse 11 He said, “Neither do I condemn you; GO, AND DO NOT SIN AGAIN.” Again, Jesus cautioned, not to sin again.

What is the message from these two examples from John 5 and 8? What if both sinned again? In the first case it would seem that indeed, SOMETHING WORSE WOULD BEFALL THE MAN and in the second case it would be a clear disobedience by the woman to a direct command of Jesus. I repeat, does that sound like, “once saved, always saved”? No way!

Then there is Rom 11:22, “See, then, the goodness and the severity of GOD: His severity towards those who have fallen, but the goodness of GOD towards you if you abide in His goodness; OTHERWISE YOU WILL ALSO BE CUTOFF.”

“Here is the patience of the Saints, who keep the commandments of GOD, and the faith of Jesus.”
Revelation 14:12

If we are “saved” already then what is the purpose of having to obey the commandments?

But you are stuck with your beliefs right? I’ll take my chances with the Church Christ founded on St. Peter, not on Calvin.

“I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so.”
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.


71 posted on 11/21/2010 11:40:39 PM PST by rbosque (12 year Freeper!!! Combat Economist.)
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