I Love that Woman! My Unworthy Reflections on The Immaculate Conception

Fighting Irish Thomas ^ | 12-8-06 | Tom O'Toole

[mlizzy]

...a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful that the Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instant of her conception, was, by a unique grace and privilege of Almighty God in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. –Ineffabilis Deus

Today's feast day is more than Pope Pius IX's 1854 infallible proclamation, as important as that Dogma was and is. Today's feast day, which issues not only from the Papal Bull Ineffabilis Deus but its echo at the Grotto in Lourdes four years later, demonstrates that the Virgin Mary, with all her wonderful titles, wants to be known by that name. And the reason is not so much that she was conceived without sin, but that through her humility before God she continued without sin until the day she was assumed into heaven. It is for this reason her prayer is so powerful, her intercession so necessary.

While salvation is assured to anyone who lives a Christ-like life and is baptized in the name of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, to reach sainthood two further questions must be asked. First, can "The Word" become "Flesh" without the Eucharist? And second, can we truly know (and then, follow) Christ if we don't love Mary?

As a Catholic, who has come to know Jesus "in the Breaking of the Bread" (Luke 24:35), I believe one's knowledge (and thus belief) in Christ can never be fully realized without the Eucharist, and without it one instead develops a sort of two-dimensional faith that allows errors to infiltrate the spaces in the soul that grace has not filled in. Similarly, one cannot have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ without Mary. A person can attempt to be friends with another without sharing in the lives of this person's close friends, but that relationship is always doomed to be flawed or incomplete. Plus, Christ chose Mary as THE friend of any Christian, when He gave her to John as His mother (John 19:26-27). And the reason Mary was named first among a Christian's friends is because she finished the Salvation Race first in humility. Being the first and only person who followed God completely, she is the only person God calls "Full of Grace" (Luke 1:28).

Of course, a charismatic Christian will correctly claim one can appeal for God's grace without the sacraments and go directly through the Holy Spirit. But without perfect humility, these appeals are always open to deception (i.e. the devil), which is obvious to anyone who observes two or more Christian leaders claiming the Holy Spirit's inspiration on a subject when their doctrines flatly contradict each other. And, of course, this need heads us directly back to Our Lady. One needs perfect humility to correctly invoke the Holy Spirit, and that is available only through the prayers of the perfectly humble one, Mary The Immaculate Conception. And Mary never fails to lead those who seek her Intercession back to her Son, especially in His humblest form, under the Appearance of Bread and Wine.

Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!

[mlizzy]

We had a nice-sized crowd at Mass this morning (6 a.m.). Always good to see!

[Celtic Cross]

I couldn’t help but think, after all those old people pass away, that Church’ll be pretty empty.

[rbosque]

There were lots of people at the vigil Mass at our parish last night.

[mlizzy]

Actually, Celtic Cross, not everyone there was old this morning. The usual a.m. Mass has a median age of probably 65-70, that's true, but this one was definitely lower. Ahhhh ... maybe 62-ish. :)

[mlizzy]

Very good; very positive! Always does my heart good to see the numbers ...

[defconw]

You probably should have put this is Caucus. :) Just saying. We had a fair amount at Mass this AM as well. It was a really nice Mass for so early.

[Servant of the Cross]

I Love that Woman!

Happy Feast Day, the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary

On December 8, we honor the Immaculate Conception of Mary our Mother.

Our first parents offended God by sinning seriously. Because of the fall of Adam and Eve, every baby is born into the world with original sin.

We are all children of our first parents so; we all inherit their sin. This sin in us is called original sin.

But the Blessed Virgin Mary was given a marvelous gift. She was conceived in the womb of her mother, St. Anne, without this original sin.

Our Lady was to be the mother of Jesus, God's only Son. The evil one, the devil, should have no power over Mary. There was never the slightest sin in our all-beautiful mother.

That is why one of the Church's favorite hymns to Mary is: "You are all-beautiful, O Mary, and there is no sin in you."

This great favor that God blessed Our Lady with is called her Immaculate Conception.

One hundred and fifty years ago, in 1854, Pope Pius IX proclaimed to the whole world that there was no doubt at all that Mary was conceived without sin.

Four years later, she appeared to Bernadette at Lourdes. When St. Bernadette asked the lovely lady who she was, Mary joined her hands and raised her eyes toward heaven. She said, "I am the Immaculate Conception."

[mlizzy]

You probably should have put this is Caucus. :) Just saying. We had a fair amount at Mass this AM as well. It was a really nice Mass for so early.

Yes, probably I should have, but on the other hand, I grow weary of excluding others via the Catholic Caucus designation; the Church never closes its doors to outsiders. However, the words of St. Ambrose are good to follow, and I encourage all other Catholics to consider them:

To avoid dissensions we should be ever on our guard, more especially with those who drive us to argue with them, with those who vex and irritate us, and who say things likely to excite us to anger. When we find ourselves in company with quarrelsome, eccentric individuals, people who openly and unblushingly say the most shocking things, difficult to put up with, we should take refuge in silence, and the wisest plan is not to reply to people whose behavior is so preposterous. --St. Ambrose

[emphasis mine]

[mlizzy]

Beautiful! I love it!

[topcat54]

a doctrine revealed by God

Sounds like Joseph Smith’s legends.

[mlizzy]

I am currently reading Leadership and Crisis, Bobby Jindal's new book, and wanted to leave this excerpt. I've never felt more strongly that he is the man to lead this country back to normalcy:

I prayed desperately, promising God that if He told me He existed and how to worship Him, I would consider myself blessed beyond belief and would not ask for anything else.

God used what was most important to me to get my attention back on Him. I was a normal teenage boy, so he used a teenage high school girl to get my attention.

During my junior year in high school, while attending a math tournament in New Orleans (stop snickering), I spotted Kathy. I had a crush on her, but had never mustered the nerve to say hello. This time I did, and we ended up going to a dance and having a great time ... Things were going great. Here was this pretty girl and she was interested in me! Then I asked her a simple question that changed everything.

"What do you want to do after school?"

Now, most of my friends in Baton Rouge wanted to be doctors, or football players, or teachers, or nurses; a few might have wanted to be rock stars. But she gave me an answer I had never heard. "I want to become a Supreme Court Justice," she said, "because I want to save innocent lives."

Where'd this come from? I thought to myself. And yet, I was struck by her answer. Saving the unborn gave her a purpose in life, something that was missing from mine.

Kathy was Catholic, and out of curiousity I attended Catholic Mass with her. I didn't want my parents [very strong in their Hindu tradition] to know, so I was probably the only teenager from Baton Rouge who told his parents he was going to a party so he could sneak off to church. --Bobby Jindal, Leadership and Crisis

Bobby Jindal describes himself as an "evangelical Catholic," having "tremendous admiration for the zeal of evangelical Protestants," but who "love[s] the teachings and doctrines of the Catholic Church."

I'm enjoying this book (easy-to-read, with wonderful splashes of humor, and surprising digs toward our current administration); if you like Jindal too, please pray for him and his family, asking the intercession of The Immaculate Conception on her most very beautiful feast day.

[defconw]

So true! St. Ambrose was wiser then I. :)

[defconw]

I do like Bobby Jindal. We’ll have to see what the future holds. It would be nice to have a REAL Catholic President.

[mlizzy]

So true! St. Ambrose was wiser then I. :)

Yes, me too! :)

[topcat54]

This being the case, ever since the time when by one man sin thus entered into this world and death by sin, and so it passed through to all men, up to the end of this carnal generation and perishing world, the children of which beget and are begotten,there never has existed, nor ever will exist, a human being of whom, placed in this life of ours, it could be said that he had no sin at all, with the exception of the one Mediator, who reconciles us to our Maker through the forgiveness of sins. (Augustine)

For wholly alone of those born of woman was our Holy Lord Jesus, Who by the strangeness of His undefiled Birth has not suffered the pollutions of earthly corruption, but dispelled them by heavenly majesty. (Ambrose)

Quoted here

[topcat54]

The eternal Word, therefore, was given to us by the hand of Mary, and of the substance of Mary He put on nature without the blemish of original sin, and this He did, because that conception was not of man, but made by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This indeed was not so in Mary, because she did not proceed from the mass of Adam by the operation of the Holy Spirit, but of man.And because that whole mass was corrupt, her soul could not be infused but into corrupt nature, nor could she be purified but by the grace of the Holy Spirit, of which grace indeed, a susceptible body is not the subject, but a rational or intellectual spirit, and therefore Mary could not be purified of that blemish, till after her soul was infused into her body, which in truth was so done out of reverence for the Divine treasure, which was destined to be placed in that vessel. For as a furnace consumes a drop of water in a moment of time, so does the Holy Spirit the blemish of original sin: for after her conception she was immediately made clean of that sin by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and was endowed with great grace. Thou knowest, O Lord, that this is the truth. (Catherine of Sienna)

Quoted here

[mlizzy]

I do like Bobby Jindal. We’ll have to see what the future holds. It would be nice to have a REAL Catholic President.

Yes, me too. I'm all ready to start working on his campaign.:)

In another part of the book, Bobby explains how he was on a flight (small 6-seater, single-engine propeller plane that was borrowed) with a few campaign workers when he was running for governor (2007), and the plane ran into some significant trouble. One of the workers, Melissa, was very concerned, even planning out her funeral in her mind, so Bobby handed her [she was not a Catholic] a rosary from his pocket [I'd love to have a president who carries a rosary in his pocket!!]. She held on tight, and then went into the fetal position. They landed safely. And as Bobby tells it from there:

Our campaign team was comprised of me and a group of Protestants. There were a few other stray Catholics ... but not many. Before the crew back at headquarters learned of our ordeal, I fired off an email from my Blackberry that simply read, "Fyi, Melissa is now Catholic." This set off a lot of confusion back at HQ. --Bobby Jindal, Leadership and Crisis

[vladimir998]

Oh, I don’t know. Martin Luther talked to the Devil. Was Luther a Mormon?

[vladimir998]

"Now with the exception of the holy Virgin Mary in regard to whom, out of respect for the Lord, I do not propose to have a single question raised on the subject of sin -- after all, how do we know what greater degree of grace for a complete victory over sin was conferred on her who merited to conceive and bring forth Him who all admit was without sin -- to repeat then: with the exception of this Virgin, if we could bring together into one place all those holy men and women, while they lived here, and ask them whether they were without sin, what are we to suppose that they would have replied?" (St. Augustine, De natura et gratia PL 44:267, from Carol Mariology, volume 1, page 15)

[topcat54]

Dealt with here:

To which I reply:

a) In this quotation, Augustine is refusing (at the time) to address the question of whether Mary had sin. He does not assert that she was sinless.
b) Augustine is saying that there is one (Jesus Christ) who certainly had no sin.
c) Augustine is addressing the issue of actual sin, not original sin.
Moreover, just a short time before writing "On Nature and Grace," Augustine wrote "On Merits and Forgiveness of Sins," in which he spoke more clearly:

Augustine (354-430):

This being the case, ever since the time when by one man sin thus entered into this world and death by sin, and so it passed through to all men, up to the end of this carnal generation and perishing world, the children of which beget and are begotten, there never has existed, nor ever will exist, a human being of whom, placed in this life of ours, it could be said that he had no sin at all, with the exception of the one Mediator, who reconciles us to our Maker through the forgiveness of sins.

NPNF1: Vol. V, On Merits and Forgiveness of Sins, and on the Baptism of Infants, Book II, Chapter 47.

Did Augustine Teach the Sinlessness of Mary?

[topcat54]

Mary was not only free from actual sin, but she was also, by a special privilege, cleansed from original sin. She had, indeed, to be conceived with original sin, inasmuch as her conception resulted from the commingling of both sexes. For the privilege of conceiving without impairment of virginity was reserved exclusively to her who as a virgin conceived the Son of God. But the commingling of the sexes which, after the sin of our first parent, cannot take place without lust, transmits original sin to the offspring. Likewise, if Mary had been conceived without original sin, she would not have had to be redeemed by Christ, and so Christ would not be the universal redeemer of men, which detracts from His dignity. Accordingly we must hold that she was conceived with original sin, but was cleansed from it in some special way. (Thomas Aquinas)

Quoted here.

[vladimir998]

You wrote: "Dealt with here" No, it isn't. Look at what your author DID NOT DEAL WITH: "...after all, how do we know what greater degree of grace for a complete victory over sin was conferred on her who merited to conceive and bring forth Him who all admit was without sin..." What GREATER DEGREE OF GRACE. Augustine is not just saying he won't deal with it. He's saying Mary receieved a greater degree of grace, but he doesn't know how much.

[topcat54]

Oh, I don’t know. Martin Luther talked to the Devil. Was Luther a Mormon?

Non sequitur. Protestants have no theory of infallibility wrt human leadership. We have no problem pointing out when our own are inventing doctrines out of whole clothe.

[vladimir998]

Aquinas did not believe in the Immaculate Conception. He believed, however, that Mary was born immaculate. Most anti-Catholics are too stupid to know the difference or to see how Aquinas could believe what he did and still be perfectly in keeping with the Magisterium as it was understood in his day.

[topcat54]

He's saying Mary receieved a greater degree of grace, but he doesn't know how much.

True, but he is clearly not coming out an affirming the post-medieval RC doctrine of the IC. He asks, “how do we know?” Well, the point is, according to Augustine, we don’t. Certainly not to the point of making it dogma of the church.

[topcat54]

with the Magisterium as it was understood in his day.

I understand the difference. I also understand the shifting sands of the Roman magisterium.

[mlizzy]

Maybe this helps:

Evangelicals often use the fact that Aquinas (unlike others of his age) did not believe that Mary was entirely sanctified from the moment of her conception to imply that she committed actual, personal sin--as Protestants assert. However, nothing could be further from the truth. Even though Aquinas did not claim that Mary was sanctified from the moment of her conception, he did claim that she was sanctified before her birth, and so never committed personal sin (for unborn children commit no personal sin; cf. Rom. 9:11). --Link.

There is more here: http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q052.htm

I should also mention that Thomas Aquinas was a theologian in the Church. In The Catholic Way by Bishop Donald Wuerl he says, "Theologians and scholars teach the word and help the Church to penetrate its full meaning. They are not official teachers in the way that bishops, the successors of the apostles, are; theologians do not receive with the bishops that "sure gift of truth" (Dei Verbum 8) that apostolic witnesses to faith receive. But they are important companions of faith, for bishops look to scholars for appropriate assistance in understanding divine revelation."

Another important point to remember is that in Aquinas' time, the Immaculate Conception was a tradition of the Church but was not a required belief. It did not become doctrine (thus a required belief) until the 19th century.

Here's more: http://www.cin.org/jp960612.html

"Down the centuries, the conviction that Mary was preserved from every stain of sin from her conception, so that she is to be called all holy, gradually gained ground in the liturgy and theology. At the start of the 19th century, this development led to a petition drive for a dogmatic definition of the privilege of the Immaculate Conception."

Link.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“True, but he is clearly not coming out an affirming the post-medieval RC doctrine of the IC.”

It’s not post medievel.

“He asks, “how do we know?” Well, the point is, according to Augustine, we don’t. Certainly not to the point of making it dogma of the church.”

That’s not what he is saying.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“I understand the difference. I also understand the shifting sands of the Roman magisterium.”

You have yet to show any “shifting sands” at all concerning the Magisterium.

[topcat54]

Evangelicals often use the fact that Aquinas (unlike others of his age) did not believe that Mary

I’m not using Aquinas in this sense. It is simply to refute the notion that the IC is part of the apostolic or ancient church tradition.

[topcat54]

It’s not post medievel.

See How Many Popes Does it Take to Deny the Immaculate Conception?

That’s not what he is saying.

Clearly it is. Augustine would not teach a Pelagian doctrine like the IC.

Moreover, when expounding the Gospel according to Luke, he [i.e. Ambrose] says: "It was no cohabitation with a husband which opened the secrets of the Virgin's womb; rather was it the Holy Ghost which infused immaculate seed into her unviolated womb. For the Lord Jesus alone of those who are born of woman is holy, inasmuch as He experienced not the contact of earthly corruption, by reason of the novelty of His immaculate birth; nay, He repelled it by His heavenly majesty." (Augustine's Anti-Pelagian Works quoted here )

[topcat54]

Down the centuries, the conviction that Mary …

Conviction does not equal truth. Islamists and Mormons hold religiously to certain convictions of their theology.

[mlizzy]

I don't wish to "argue." I'm taking "refuge in silence."

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Clearly it is. Augustine would not teach a Pelagian doctrine like the IC.”

So you believe being cleansed by Christ’s is Pelagian? Unbelievable.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“See How Many Popes Does it Take to Deny the Immaculate Conception?”

Apparently you’re very ennamoured with Turretin, but he doesn’t seem very able.

I read through the quotes from Leo I, for instance, and none of them deny the Immaculate Conception.

The same goes for Gelasius I - he never once mentioned Mary for instance.

Gregory I - none of the quotes mention Mary.

John IV - no mention of Mary.

Innocent III - “He had before come into her, when, in her mother’s womb, He cleansed her soul from original sin; but now too He came upon her to cleanse her flesh from the ‘fomes’ of sin, that she might be altogether without spot or wrinkle.” So Innocent believed she was in fact immaculate.

“7. John XXII (or Benedict XII)”

Uh, if you can’t tell me who EXACTLY said it, then I don’t see why I should take the quote at face value to begin with.

And when you follow the link you discover no real source is listed. I just love it when bigots cite bigots who cited bigots.

[topcat54]

So you believe being cleansed by Christ’s is Pelagian? Unbelievable.

No, I believe the IC is a Pelagian heresy. Among the ancient church, the only ones teaching a form of sinlessness were the Pelagians. None of the church fathers taught that Mary was immaculately conceived. So the claim of Ineffabilis Deus regarding the nature of this teaching in church history is basically a false one.

[TASMANIANRED]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5GUdUYUF8A

[topcat54]

people who openly and unblushingly say the most shocking things, difficult to put up with, we should take refuge in silence,

Have you ever considered that many of the things taught by the RC regarding Mary such as the theory of the IC are "the most shocking things, difficult to put up with?" The knife cuts both ways.

The irony here is that Ambrose would be spinning in his grave if a pope told him that he must accept the dogma of the IC.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“No, I believe the IC is a Pelagian heresy.”

Which makes absolutely no sense. In a miracle at conception no human works are even possible.

“Among the ancient church, the only ones teaching a form of sinlessness were the Pelagians.”

That again makes no sense. You’re claiming that a doctrine held only by orthodox Christians is related to a doctrine held only by heretics. That in itself seems like an impossibility. Also, this was a singular grace of God in Mary’s case and that is NOT what the Pelagians believed in. Your views are incoherent.

“None of the church fathers taught that Mary was immaculately conceived.”

I think you should look into that claim. How about Proclus of Constantinople:

As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain (Homily 1[ante A.D. 446]).

Jacob of Sarug:

[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary[ante A.D. 521].

Romanos the Melodist:

Then the tribes of Israel heard that Anna had conceived the immaculate one. So everyone took part in the rejoicing. Joachim gave a banquet, and great was the merriment in the garden. He invited the priests and Levites to prayer; then he called Mary into the center of the crowd, that she might be magnified (On the Birth of Mary 1 [d. ca A.D. 560]).

Some Fathers clearly taught she was sinless in their writings. So, when do you think they believed she became immaculate?

Ambrose of Milan

Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).

“So the claim of Ineffabilis Deus regarding the nature of this teaching in church history is basically a false one.”

No. Only your understanding is false. Anti-Catholics rarely understand orthodox Christianity since it is foreign to them.

[vladimir998]

you wrote:

“The irony here is that Ambrose would be spinning in his grave if a pope told him that he must accept the dogma of the IC.”

I’m not so sure of that.

Ambrose of Milan:

Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).

[mlizzy]

The irony here is that Ambrose would be spinning in his grave if a pope told him that he must accept the dogma of the IC.

What a joke! He's already in heaven; he knows the truth. And if you can't take Mary's word for it ... what can I say? Nothing!

Finally, it is also interesting that in several apparitions of our Blessed Mother, she herself has attested to her Immaculate Conception: On December 9 (the date for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception in the Spanish Empire) in 1531 at Guadalupe, Mary said to Juan Diego, "I am the perfect and perpetual Virgin Mary, Mother of the true God, through whom everything lives...." In 1830, Mary told St. Catherine Laboure to have the Miraculous Medal struck with the inscription, "Mary conceived free from sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee." Lastly, when she appeared to St. Bernadette at Lourdes in 1858, Mary said, "I am the Immaculate Conception." --Link.

[topcat54]

Uh, if you can’t tell me who EXACTLY said it, then I don’t see why I should take the quote at face value to begin with.

This is the way it was reported by the Jansenist Launoy as quoted in various sources.

[topcat54]

And if you can't take Mary's word for it ... what can I say? Nothing!

You’re joking, right? Think of the sensibilities of those of us who do not believe in apparitions of Mary on pieces of toast. Mary said no such thing. Mary does not appear to people. These are the imaginative notions of a superstitious lot, sanctioned by a hierarchy willing to give the people what they want in order to keep them in line at all cost.

[topcat54]

Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin

Being free from the stain of sin is the condition of all the righteous.

“Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” (Ps. 51:7)

Mary is nothing special in this regard. Given what Ambrose said elsewhere it’s hard to take his comment about Mary as supporting the IC theory.

So, then, no one is without sin except God alone, for no one is without sin except God. (On the Holy Spirit)

[mlizzy]

On the Feast of The Immaculate Conception, your commentary is making Mary very sad. While you might be too smart to figure it all out, remember Bobby Jindal eventually did, and he's a Rhodes Scholar. Post #11

[mlizzy]

Great News!!

• Virgin Mary apparitions near Green Bay shrine recognized as first in U.S.
  
  
• Light a candle at the Shrine

[defconw]

Great story! LOL.

[mlizzy]

Yes, funny! The book has a lot of humor in it.

[defconw]

My communist library probably does not have it.

[topcat54]

Mary’s a Packers fan?