Posted on 12/12/2010 1:24:13 PM PST by marshmallow
Christ assumed actual flesh, conceived and born of the Virgin.
1. Those, therefore, who allege that He took nothing from the Virgin do greatly err, [since,] in order that they may cast away the inheritance of the flesh, they also reject the analogy [between Him and Adam]. For if the one [who sprang] from the earth had indeed formation and substance from both the hand and workmanship of God, but the other not from the hand and workmanship of God, then He who was made after the image and likeness of the former did not, in that case, preserve the analogy of man, and He must seem an inconsistent piece of work, not having wherewith He may show His wisdom. But this is to say, that He also appeared putatively as man when He was not man, and that He was made man while taking nothing from man. For if He did not receive the substance of flesh from a human being, He neither was made man nor the Son of man; and if He was not made what we were, He did no great thing in what He suffered and endured. But every one will allow that we are [composed of] a body taken from the earth, and a soul receiving spirit from God. This, therefore, the Word of God was made, recapitulating in Himself His own handiwork; and on this account does He confess Himself the Son of man, and blesses "the meek, because they shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5 The Apostle Paul, moreover, in the Epistle to the Galatians, declares plainly, "God sent His Son, made of a woman." Galatians 4:4 And again, in that to the Romans, he says, "Concerning His Son, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, who was predestinated as the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 1:3-4
2. Superfluous, too, in that case is His descent into Mary; for why did He come down into her if He were to take nothing of her? Still further, if He had taken nothing of Mary, He would never have availed Himself of those kinds of food which are derived from the earth, by which that body which has been taken from the earth is nourished; nor would He have hungered, fasting those forty days, like Moses and Elias, unless His body was craving after its own proper nourishment; nor, again, would John His disciple have said, when writing of Him, "But Jesus, being wearied with the journey, was sitting [to rest];" John 4:6 nor would David have proclaimed of Him beforehand, "They have added to the grief of my wounds;" nor would He have wept over Lazarus, nor have sweated great drops of blood; nor have declared, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful;" Matthew 26:38 nor, when His side was pierced, would there have come forth blood and water. For all these are tokens of the flesh which had been derived from the earth, which He had recapitulated in Himself, bearing salvation to His own handiwork.
3. Wherefore Luke points out that the pedigree which traces the generation of our Lord back to Adam contains seventy-two generations, connecting the end with the beginning, and implying that it is He who has summed up in Himself all nations dispersed from Adam downwards, and all languages and generations of men, together with Adam himself. Hence also was Adam himself termed by Paul "the figure of Him that was to come," Romans 5:14 because the Word, the Maker of all things, had formed beforehand for Himself the future dispensation of the human race, connected with the Son of God; God having predestined that the first man should be of an animal nature, with this view, that he might be saved by the spiritual One. For inasmuch as He had a pre-existence as a saving Being, it was necessary that what might be saved should also be called into existence, in order that the Being who saves should not exist in vain.
4. In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to your word." Luke 1:38 But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise "they were both naked, and were not ashamed," Genesis 2:25 inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. Matthew 19:30, Matthew 20:16 And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, "instead of fathers, children have been born unto you." For the Lord, having been born "the First-begotten of the dead," Revelation 1:5 and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. 1 Corinthians 15:20-22 Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.
And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.
Veneration of the Virgin is not some latter day Catholic fad. In 185AD, Irenaeus clearly outlines the importance of Mary's "yes" and her role as the new Eve. Irenaeus writes that "Mary became the cause of salvation...to the whole human race". Clearly a unique and pivotal figure in salvation history and most deserving of our love and honor.
The Catholic Church's veneration of Mary can thus be traced to a very early period in Church history and has extremely robust historical and theological roots.
Ping!
I believe in the birth of Christ and have accepted him as my personal savior. Not doubting, but can it be explained in scientific terms how a woman can be impregnated by a spiritual being without sexual intercourse?
Pause to consider who it was that created science.
And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!” But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. For with God nothing will be impossible.” Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
is there a scientific term for “miracle?”
Its always interesting to see the mere mention of Mary in the writings of antiquity exaggerated into full-blown “robust historical and theological roots” for her worship, veneration, reverance ... whatever you want to call it.
**Not doubting, but can it be explained in scientific terms how a woman can be impregnated by a spiritual being without sexual intercourse?**
You say you are not doubting...but your post virtually reeks of doubt.
Where is your faith? Hiding behind you science?
Faith came a long time before science. LOL!
Here's what Irenaeus says:
........so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race."
And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.
You consider that "a mere mention"?
Comments?
I assume that by “science” you mean “events reproducible in multiple experiments.” As far as I know, there has not been another experiment of this kind since the conception of Jesus.
The term for “believing in Jesus, but He was a regular human man” is “Arian.”
The Lord can miraculously shrink a tumor or heal an infection in the body. In fact, if He hadn’t healed us of a host of infections in our lifetimes, we would have died many years ago. The first common cold would have killed us. Cut your finger. Observe how elegantly it heals; it makes its own band-aid, in fact. Then a few days later, it sheds the band-aid. Without this, the first cut we got would have killed us. Scientific; yes. Miracles; yes. We put way too much emphasis on sexual intercourse when spiritually things occur of a miraculous nature within our bodies all the time no thanks to sex. I don’t think insemination would be too difficult with the Spirit.
No it is not. Arianism accepted that Christ was the son of God and that there was only one God. They differed with Rome about whether Jesus had always existed or was "created" by God. It was an "angels on the head of a pin" kind of thing that caused a lot of destruction.
Ah, I see I was confused.
So Mary can forgive sins/provide salvation?
Cam may be a horrible human like Big Ben or Favre or Namath, but he is a great athelete. If we want to reward good conduct, let’s create a “But She Has a Great Personality Award.” There isn’t a single NFL team that wouldn’t kill to have Newton.
Sorry, I had 2 posts confused. I am an idiot. I thought I was responding this time about the Heisman. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry.
Its been a while since I read Irenaeus, but I don’t recall him dwelling on Mary like the Catholics who post to this FR religious forum do. Catholics jump on this slight mention of Mary by Irenaeus as if he was RCC, he was not.
The trouble with the Patristic writings is you never know for sure if these people actually wrote what you are reading. There was an awful lot of after the fact interpolating going on. Catholics especially were unscrupulous about these sort of things. Doctoring up the text here and there to make it support their institution.
As can be seen by the RCC’s who post here, they do this all the time. They will go to any length to prove their Mary worship is Apostolic orthodoxy, for instance.
The Patristic writings, for this fact alone, suspicion of tampering with the text, should never be taken as the last word, the Bible is the last word on any theological question.
LOL - that was strange!
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Scripture text: Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition
Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.
Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.
Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.
Amen.
What are you claiming he is saying?
I see he is saying that Eve disobeyed, Mary didn’t.
As far as Mary causing salvation to come to man ... his analogy breaks down because Eve didnt cause death to come to man. The epistles clearly teach that it was Adams sin that brought sin into the world.
You find nothing like what he has said here in any of the gospels or epistles. He is either using illustration, analogy ... or he is just plain wrong.
Who is the higher authority in the RCC? The current vicar of Christ or Mary the Queen of Heaven?
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